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Election, Predestination and Scripture
- Thread starter Van
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I was reading all the comments and wondering if I should slide in join and the fray... Then I read this comment and had to stop for a minute and regroup... Did he really say and mean what he said?... I thought you fell off the boat... But you redeemed yourself in post #9... Don't scare me...
I thought for a minute you went Unversalistic... But you didn't... Brother Glen
I was interested in engaging in this discussion, but upon reading the first post and seeing as many errors as words, I think I will pass.
At least you dropped by to take a look and leave a comment... You have to pick your own battles... Brother Glen
These are your verses for corporate election, Jon?
Explain them in context and what the verse says. I don't see your point.
What do those verses have to do with election? I can see national pride and desire to see a nation saved, but where is election in these verses?
I know I am not Van and am not trying to derail this thread but I have thought of something that is important to me... If corporate election is true then where is the LOVE?... There is a sterility to the concept... God says I have loved thee with an everlasting love and with loving kindness have I drawn thee... Drawn with love... There is an individual personal connection with the one drawn. This illustration I have heard so many times if I was the only one that was effected by the sin of Adam... Jesus Christ would have laid aside his glory and died for just me... Individually... Personally... And I believe although there we be all of God's children in Heaven... Out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation... Those would be his elect that the Father gave to the His Son Jesus Christ to die for and none lost... Elected, Purchased, Redeemed, and Resurrected by the LOVE OF GOD!... Brother Glen
Pay no attention to the posters providing disinformation and trying to derail the thread.
Scripture says we have lived without mercy. The disinformation folks, say we have not lived without mercy. Further discussion is just a waste of time. Apparently Mr. Davis has chosen not to contribute.
Brother Glen, you wrote, if corporate election is true, then where is the LOVE? You did not indicate that both corporate and individual elections are found in scripture. You seemed to be implying that if you say Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election, then no individual election occurs. However, I provided verse after verse that addresses our individual election for salvation conditioned on faith in the truth.
Wasting time knocking down strawmen is the stock and trade of those unwilling or unable to actually discuss what scripture says about election for salvation.
Scripture says we have lived without mercy. The disinformation folks, say we have not lived without mercy. Further discussion is just a waste of time. Apparently Mr. Davis has chosen not to contribute.
Brother Glen, you wrote, if corporate election is true, then where is the LOVE? You did not indicate that both corporate and individual elections are found in scripture. You seemed to be implying that if you say Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election, then no individual election occurs. However, I provided verse after verse that addresses our individual election for salvation conditioned on faith in the truth.
Wasting time knocking down strawmen is the stock and trade of those unwilling or unable to actually discuss what scripture says about election for salvation.
Sorry Brother Glenn, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. You cannot get around it. Just how do you suppose we got faith not our own before we were chosen? The fact is scripture clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. How did we live without mercy if we were chosen individually before creation? How did God choose us as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God? Verses after verse makes the truth plain.
But, be that as it may, thanks for actually dealing with the topic and providing an update on Mr. Davis.
But, be that as it may, thanks for actually dealing with the topic and providing an update on Mr. Davis.
In several passages we see the concept of stumbling. The idea is we are traveling, as best we can, along the path of righteousness, and then some of us stumble. Although we had separated ourselves from some sort of sin, we stumble and fall back into its snare. As Christians, we are to be careful we do not cause our Christian siblings to stumble. Thus we avoid doing things that cause others to stumble.
To my way of thinking, being disobedient to the word, is an action that can causes others to stumble.
To my way of thinking, being disobedient to the word, is an action that can causes others to stumble.
Hello, Brother @MennoSota
Vessels in Romans 9 is referring to Nations...One nation God raised up for Honor, another to Dishonor. God has used individual names to Describe a nation throughout the entire Bible. Israel is Jacob/Israel! Also, God refers to the Edomites in Chapter 1 of Malachi as "Esau". So here is a help to understand the correlation
Jeremiah 18
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words."
3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
The Lord also refers to the nations as clay vessels in Psalm 2 and the Book of Revelation, where they are smashed as if with a rod of iron on a clay vessle in judgment:
Psalm 2
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
So, you see, In Romans 9, Paul is using people as nations in the same way as God has done in previous writings.
Essentially, Paul is saying that God raised up a nation to Bring salvation and light (Jesus) to the world.
Sooooooo, God hates nations and not individuals?
The context of Romans 9 does not lend credence to your claim, however. Paul is clearly looking at individuals, not nations in this passage. Paul tells us that our ancestry does not make us saved. If it had, both Jacob and Esau would have been chosen, but God only chose one of the two individuals.
The context reveals that Paul is arguing against corporate election, which is opposite of what the nation of Israel and Jews around him believed. Like your argument, the unreconciled Jews argued a corporate salvation, but Paul says it is not true and then lays out why corporate salvation is not true in Romans 9.
Romans 9:6-13
[6]Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!
[7]Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,” though Abraham had other children, too.
[8]This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children.
[9]For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
[10]This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins.
[11]But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;
[12]he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”
[13]In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
What does the Bible say about that? What does Romans 9 Say about that?
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