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Election, Predestination and Scripture
- Thread starter Van
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Salvation is the gift not faith.
Both would be....
Yet another bogus assertion, again devoid of any actual support in scripture. And again, the claim we cannot receive the gospel is shown to be unbiblical by Matthew 23:13, where unregenerate men were entering the kingdom of heaven. They were not under the influence of irresistible grace because they were blocked. God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness. Scripture refers to our faith more than a dozen times. But no scripture says we had God instilled faith before creation. They just made this bogus argument up.
By the numbers:
1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election as the target group of His redemption plan, because when God chose His lamb, His redeemer, He also chose us in Him as those His redeemer would redeem.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 teaches once we were not a people, but now we are God's chosen people, once we lived without mercy but now we have mercy. Thus we were chosen during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy.
4) James 2:5 teaches God chose us as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Verse after verse teach the same thing, we were chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
By the numbers:
1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election as the target group of His redemption plan, because when God chose His lamb, His redeemer, He also chose us in Him as those His redeemer would redeem.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 teaches once we were not a people, but now we are God's chosen people, once we lived without mercy but now we have mercy. Thus we were chosen during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy.
4) James 2:5 teaches God chose us as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Verse after verse teach the same thing, we were chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
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Why do people quote someone else' post but do not respond to the quote?
You have a wrong understand on that verse from matthew, and God has mercy towards all in the sense that we were all born, and were able to live long enough to receive jesus!
God based His election upon His own will and not sinners wills, as none of us would get ever saved apart from Him first choosing to save us!
Yet another taint so post, but nothing to support the denial. Folks, just read Matthew 23:13, the men were entering the kingdom of heaven. That is not only the right understanding, it is the only understanding possible from the text.
Did anyone say God based His election on the sinner's will? Nope - so yet another strawman argument.
By the numbers:
1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election as the target group of His redemption plan, because when God chose His lamb, His redeemer, He also chose us in Him as those His redeemer would redeem.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 teaches once we were not a people, but now we are God's chosen people, once we lived without mercy but now we have mercy. Thus we were chosen during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy.
4) James 2:5 teaches God chose us as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Verse after verse teach the same thing, we were chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
Did anyone say God based His election on the sinner's will? Nope - so yet another strawman argument.
By the numbers:
1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election as the target group of His redemption plan, because when God chose His lamb, His redeemer, He also chose us in Him as those His redeemer would redeem.
2) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 teaches once we were not a people, but now we are God's chosen people, once we lived without mercy but now we have mercy. Thus we were chosen during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy.
4) James 2:5 teaches God chose us as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Verse after verse teach the same thing, we were chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
3Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Romans 4 is clear, salvation is by grace through faith. And the faith credited is our faith, not the imaginary instilled faith asserted by fake theology.
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
3Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Romans 4 is clear, salvation is by grace through faith. And the faith credited is our faith, not the imaginary instilled faith asserted by fake theology.
That definition of election I can agree with
Choosing apples:
Later today I plan on going to the market and bringing home some apples. But before I ever even headed to the store I formulated a plan. Now I am going to pick honey crisp apples because that is my plan. And I am going to select from many apples the ones I want and will set them apart in my grocery bag. Now when I am at the story, the apples are chosen according to the foreknowledge of Van, because I had a predetermined plan of action. So when I carry out my plan, it is according to foreknowledge. I am going to use my arm and hand to pick up the individual apple and set it apart in my bag, and this is the sanctifying work of my arm/hand.
Choosing believers:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
who are chosen
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
In summary, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
Later today I plan on going to the market and bringing home some apples. But before I ever even headed to the store I formulated a plan. Now I am going to pick honey crisp apples because that is my plan. And I am going to select from many apples the ones I want and will set them apart in my grocery bag. Now when I am at the story, the apples are chosen according to the foreknowledge of Van, because I had a predetermined plan of action. So when I carry out my plan, it is according to foreknowledge. I am going to use my arm and hand to pick up the individual apple and set it apart in my bag, and this is the sanctifying work of my arm/hand.
Choosing believers:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
who are chosen
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
In summary, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches that we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus this individual election was conditioned on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
Does God hate nations and not individuals? Yes or no will suffice.I asked you to answer this, not give me a question. Please answer. Thanks bunches.
I see Romans 9 has now been added to the effort to change the subject from our election for salvation through faith in the truth.
The election of Jacob and Esau was conditional, the younger was selected so the older would serve the younger. There is absolutely no support in scripture for unconditional election for salvation. But verse after verse makes clear our election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth.
The election of Jacob and Esau was conditional, the younger was selected so the older would serve the younger. There is absolutely no support in scripture for unconditional election for salvation. But verse after verse makes clear our election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth.
That is irrelevant to my post. I have no clue what you are talking about when you say, "God hates nations and not people." My post had to do with Nations being discussed and being personified.
Jacob I have loved Esau I hated. So, God hates nations?
Yes, bro. Paul is QUOTING Malachi.
Malachi 1:1-4 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
Do you think I just make this stuff up? Wait, don't answer that
Ppl say that God does not hate ppl, but then they say God hates the nation of Edom, the Edomites?Yes, bro. Paul is QUOTING Malachi.
Malachi 1:1-4 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
Do you think I just make this stuff up? Wait, don't answer that
just a quick reminder, the subject of this thread is the biblical truth that our individual election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth. We were saved by grace through faith. The advocates of fake theology say that is not true, but offer no biblical support. So they change the subject.
Calv1
Active Member
God was elected by whom? See this piece offers nothing, it ignores every scripture from Genesis "I prevented Him from sinning against Me", to the Patriarchs "You meant (THAT EVIL) for evil, God meant (THAT SAME EVIL) for good, same words used.
So it's possible God could have sent Christ, yet they make Him King and not crucify Him? Sorry just so sick of people hating God and His word, and that's what it is. God, weak, "Gee I hope they kill Him, shoot have to send Him again", no Acts tells us God predestined each event in Christ's Crucifixion, I apologize but I just can't handle liberalism anymore, it's not biblical, people think "I don't like a God who decrees all that is", so they butcher Romans 8, 9, John 6, Eph 1, and twist scriptures "All that were appointed to eternal life, believed", not the other way around.
I know the argument, I used to make it, my biggest complaint was the one Paul answered in Romans 9, that it was unfair, but if Armininism was true, it still has the same outcome, God creating the world, KNOWING BILLIONS WILL NEVER HAVE SCRIPTURE, ABLE TO GET IT TO THEM, allow them to go to Hell, so what's the difference? The difference is that we are HELL DESERVING SINNERS, the most basic tenet of Christianity, yet man doesn't really believe it, for if they did they'd say "Why does God save any rebel, I thought He was just", that's the right way of looking at it, not this "We all deserve a chance", we seem to have no problem that the angels got no second chance, one sin, that's it, Hell eternal. If you don't like what God claims of Himself then don't worship Him, but don't call yourself Christian unless you simply don't understand Reformed Theology, which most don't.
God says about Himself. 1. He appoints all Governments, Pagan Nebuchadnezzar knew this! 2. Every minor incident, the roll of the dice, He determines which number comes up 3. What we do "I know oh Lord that a mans ways are NOT HIS OWN, you guide his every step. 4. He controls the tongue "thoughts belong to man, but every word uttered is from the Lord.5. He controls natural disasters, He kills and He makes the poor and the rich, if calamity comes to a city, it has come from the Lord, He does ALL THAT PLEASES HIM, IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH, AND THE DEEP.
To just brush these and the hundreds more where God Himself tells us about Himself, what He does, to ignore that is to not have faith, and to not have faith means not being a Christian. ALL of the Church, except Rome and some cults were Reformed up until the grand 1800's, which gave us German "Higher Criticism", Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Dispensationlism, and FROM German Higher Criticism liberalism of the Church, as Spurgeon called it, the great "Downgrade", liberals would do well to hear his sermons online, his warning to the Church, Isaiah wrote "Lord why have you HARDENED OUR HEARTS so we fear you not", Jesus said in His High Priestly prayer "I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME", if this isn't clear, you don't have the Spirit to give you eyes and ears, I can understand ignorance, but there is so much information online, how about watching Dr. James White debate Arminians? It's very dangerous territory to KNOW THE TRUTH, AND REJECT IT
So it's possible God could have sent Christ, yet they make Him King and not crucify Him? Sorry just so sick of people hating God and His word, and that's what it is. God, weak, "Gee I hope they kill Him, shoot have to send Him again", no Acts tells us God predestined each event in Christ's Crucifixion, I apologize but I just can't handle liberalism anymore, it's not biblical, people think "I don't like a God who decrees all that is", so they butcher Romans 8, 9, John 6, Eph 1, and twist scriptures "All that were appointed to eternal life, believed", not the other way around.
I know the argument, I used to make it, my biggest complaint was the one Paul answered in Romans 9, that it was unfair, but if Armininism was true, it still has the same outcome, God creating the world, KNOWING BILLIONS WILL NEVER HAVE SCRIPTURE, ABLE TO GET IT TO THEM, allow them to go to Hell, so what's the difference? The difference is that we are HELL DESERVING SINNERS, the most basic tenet of Christianity, yet man doesn't really believe it, for if they did they'd say "Why does God save any rebel, I thought He was just", that's the right way of looking at it, not this "We all deserve a chance", we seem to have no problem that the angels got no second chance, one sin, that's it, Hell eternal. If you don't like what God claims of Himself then don't worship Him, but don't call yourself Christian unless you simply don't understand Reformed Theology, which most don't.
God says about Himself. 1. He appoints all Governments, Pagan Nebuchadnezzar knew this! 2. Every minor incident, the roll of the dice, He determines which number comes up 3. What we do "I know oh Lord that a mans ways are NOT HIS OWN, you guide his every step. 4. He controls the tongue "thoughts belong to man, but every word uttered is from the Lord.5. He controls natural disasters, He kills and He makes the poor and the rich, if calamity comes to a city, it has come from the Lord, He does ALL THAT PLEASES HIM, IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH, AND THE DEEP.
To just brush these and the hundreds more where God Himself tells us about Himself, what He does, to ignore that is to not have faith, and to not have faith means not being a Christian. ALL of the Church, except Rome and some cults were Reformed up until the grand 1800's, which gave us German "Higher Criticism", Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Dispensationlism, and FROM German Higher Criticism liberalism of the Church, as Spurgeon called it, the great "Downgrade", liberals would do well to hear his sermons online, his warning to the Church, Isaiah wrote "Lord why have you HARDENED OUR HEARTS so we fear you not", Jesus said in His High Priestly prayer "I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME", if this isn't clear, you don't have the Spirit to give you eyes and ears, I can understand ignorance, but there is so much information online, how about watching Dr. James White debate Arminians? It's very dangerous territory to KNOW THE TRUTH, AND REJECT IT
Hi Calv1, I am sure you had a point in your post #59.
But I could not find it, other than you want to change the subject.
1) Did anyone say God was elected? Nope - so yet another strawman deflection.
2) Did I ignore any scripture? Nope - so yet another generalized charge.
3) Did I say God was an evil evil God? Nope - so more drivel to change the subject.
4) Did I say I hate God? Nope - so yet another charge without an basis.
5) Did I say God did not have Christ crucified by His predetermined plan? Nope - so more blah
6) Did i butcher any scripture? Nope - so yet another charge. See a pattern?
7) Did I say Arminianism is true? Nope - so another change the subject ploy.
Exhaustive determinism has been shown to be fake theology, but be that as it may, it not the subject of this thread.
Did you address any of the verses I provided to prove our election for salvation was conditioned on faith in the truth? Nope
But I could not find it, other than you want to change the subject.
1) Did anyone say God was elected? Nope - so yet another strawman deflection.
2) Did I ignore any scripture? Nope - so yet another generalized charge.
3) Did I say God was an evil evil God? Nope - so more drivel to change the subject.
4) Did I say I hate God? Nope - so yet another charge without an basis.
5) Did I say God did not have Christ crucified by His predetermined plan? Nope - so more blah
6) Did i butcher any scripture? Nope - so yet another charge. See a pattern?
7) Did I say Arminianism is true? Nope - so another change the subject ploy.
Exhaustive determinism has been shown to be fake theology, but be that as it may, it not the subject of this thread.
Did you address any of the verses I provided to prove our election for salvation was conditioned on faith in the truth? Nope
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