Election, Predestination and Scripture

[MennoSota]

Yet another effort to change the subject. It seems the Calvinists, although different models, are all from the same brand - charge-o-matic.

Did I say God was required to save anyone? Nope - so yet another deflection, another change of subject.

See a pattern folks?

God chose individuals for salvation from the beginning through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, thus a conditional election. We lived without mercy before becoming a chosen people. Thus our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 1 Peter 2:9-10. God chose us as individuals poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

Unconditional Election is fake theology

Are you a pretzel maker by trade, Van?

 

[TCassidy]

I see TC continues to ask the same question based on the same falsehood over and over.

So you admit you posted a falsehood?

TC asks how can God condition His election based on faith in the truth.

I didn't ask that.

 

[Van]

Note the absence of any verse or passage that says we were chosen unconditionally for salvation. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

So do the Charge-o-matics argue from scripture? Nope - they disparage me.

LOL

About a dozen verses teach God credits our faith as righteousness and chooses individuals through faith in the truth, who are rich in faith, who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those that love God.

 

[MennoSota]

Note the absence of any verse or passage that says we were chosen unconditionally for salvation. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

Seems to me that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 isn't teaching what you claim it teaches.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-14
[11]So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.
[12]Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
[14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

If we consider this passage (1 Corinthians 1:26-31) in light of James 2:5 (God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith) an interesting parallel becomes apparent. A person who is poor to the world is not rated highly by the world's value system. Today we see that the world values highly educated people, accredited people such as Pastors with doctorates. Or powerful men (CEOs and Senators and Generals and so forth. And of course the world values "nobility" (usually celebrity) such as a TV late night comic. But of course the world's value system is not God's.

In the church today we see God's chosen as laymen, as employees, as people with little or no "name recognition." We are in Christ by God's doing, rather than because we earned a degree in Greek.

Our election was conditional, through faith in the truth, and not based on the world's value system. ,

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those who rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (as in post #84).

 

[MennoSota]

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

If we consider this passage (1 Corinthians 1:26-31) in light of James 2:5 (God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith) an interesting parallel becomes apparent. A person who is poor to the world is not rated highly by the world's value system. Today we see that the world values highly educated people, accredited people such as Pastors with doctorates. Or powerful men (CEOs and Senators and Generals and so forth. And of course the world values "nobility" (usually celebrity) such as a TV late night comic. But of course the world's value system is not God's.

In the church today we see God's chosen as laymen, as employees, as people with little or no "name recognition." We are in Christ by God's doing, rather than because we earned a degree in Greek.

Our election was conditional, through faith in the truth, and not based on the world's value system. ,

It is impossible to be rich in faith when God has not quickened the heart to believe.
Second, what do you do with the myriad of financially wealthy people whom God chooses to save? By your view they cannot possibly be redeemed. So much for Richard DeVos being a Christian as God has made him a billionaire.
One has to question your use of scripture and find your view to be empty of any merit.

 

[Van]

Assertion: It is impossible to be rich in faith when God has not "quickened the heart to believe.
Supporting scripture: None
Contradicting scripture: Matthew 23:13 Unquickened men were entering the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:1-23 3 of the 4 soils believed to a degree.​

Did I say God never chooses a wise man, a wealthy man or a powerful man? Nope - so yet another false charge
Then the gratuitous disparagement - capping a post devoid of merit.

Unconditional election is fake theology. About a dozen verses support conditional election through faith in the truth.
Since people are chosen through faith in the truth, then quickening (being made alive together with Christ) follows election.
Gee - God chooses people for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. When we are set apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) we are made alive (quickened) together with Christ. Ephesians 2:5.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Pay no attention to those who rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (as in post #84).

Again, what condition(s) did you meet?

You're like the Three Stooges....

Duck, Dodge and Hyde...

 

[Van]

As you can see, the Charge-o-matics are simply attacking the messenger, offering nothing to support their fake theology.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose us through faith in the truth. So the condition met by every born anew believer is... wait for it... faith in the truth. But rather than accept "faith in the truth" they ask on "what condition?" Their goal is to change the subject by sidestepping the obvious. They obfuscate because their doctrine has no support in scripture.

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (in the NASB, LEB or NKJV).
Read James 2:5
Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Read Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.
Read 1 Peter 2:9-10

Inescapable conclusion God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, for salvation through faith in the truth. They love God and are rich in faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

As you can see, the Charge-o-matics are simply attacking the messenger, offering nothing to support their fake theology.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose us through faith in the truth. So the condition met by every born anew believer is... wait for it... faith in the truth. But rather than accept "faith in the truth" they ask on "what condition?" Their goal is to change the subject by sidestepping the obvious. They obfuscate because their doctrine has no support in scripture.

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (in the NASB, LEB or NKJV).
Read James 2:5
Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Read Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.
Read 1 Peter 2:9-10

Inescapable conclusion God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, for salvation through faith in the truth. They love God and are rich in faith.

That faith came from God, who grants that to His elect!

 

[Van]

Y1 posts more fiction from fake theology. Has it not occurred to him that God chooses through faith in the truth, the person had faith before chosen. Y1 and his cohorts are proclaiming what is not in scripture, and I am proclaiming 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and about a dozen more verses that teach God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, through faith in the truth. Folks, rich in faith and that love God.

Just read the verses in post # 90.

 

[MennoSota]

Assertion: It is impossible to be rich in faith when God has not "quickened the heart to believe.
Supporting scripture: None
Contradicting scripture: Matthew 23:13 Unquickened men were entering the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:1-23 3 of the 4 soils believed to a degree.​

Did I say God never chooses a wise man, a wealthy man or a powerful man? Nope - so yet another false charge
Then the gratuitous disparagement - capping a post devoid of merit.

Unconditional election is fake theology. About a dozen verses support conditional election through faith in the truth.
Since people are chosen through faith in the truth, then quickening (being made alive together with Christ) follows election.
Gee - God chooses people for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. When we are set apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) we are made alive (quickened) together with Christ. Ephesians 2:5.

You keep repeating the same mantra as if by repetition you can convince people that your lie is truth. Why is that?

I am still waiting for those dozen verses. As of this moment you are at zero.

 

[MennoSota]

Y1 posts more fiction from fake theology. Has it not occurred to him that God chooses through faith in the truth, the person had faith before chosen. Y1 and his cohorts are proclaiming what is not in scripture, and I am proclaiming 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and about a dozen more verses that teach God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, through faith in the truth. Folks, rich in faith and that love God.

Just read the verses in post # 90.

Yawn, your Thessalonians interpretation has been debunked on multiple occasions.

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those who use an agenda driven rewrite of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The actual text says God chooses people through faith in the truth, a Conditional Election for salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Pay no attention to those who use an agenda driven rewrite of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The actual text says God chooses people through faith in the truth, a Conditional Election for salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-17
[9]This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.
[10]He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.
[11]So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.
[12]Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
[14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[15]With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.
[16]Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope,
[17]comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say.

Hmmm....chosen through the Spirit who makes us holy, followed by faith.
Seems that Van has the agenda.

 

[Van]

Yes, I quote 2 Thessalonians 2:13 from the NASB, or LEB, or NKJV. The charge-o-mnatic repeatedly posts an agenda driven rewrite.
Unconditional election is shown to be bogus by 2 Thess. 2:13, so voila, we get a rewrite that does not teach conditional election. Such is how fake theology is defended. Just read the verses I posted

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (in the NASB, LEB, NKJV, NET, HCSB or WEB).
Read James 2:5
Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Read Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.
Read 1 Peter 2:9-10

Inescapable conclusion God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, for salvation through faith in the truth. They love God and are rich in faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, I quote 2 Thessalonians 2:13 from the NASB, or LEB, or NKJV. The charge-o-mnatic repeatedly posts an agenda driven rewrite.
Unconditional election is shown to be bogus by 2 Thess. 2:13, so voila, we get a rewrite that does not teach conditional election. Such is how fake theology is defended. Just read the verses I posted

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (in the NASB, LEB or NKJV).
Read James 2:5
Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Read Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.
Read 1 Peter 2:9-10

Inescapable conclusion God chooses individuals during their lifetime, after they have lived without mercy, for salvation through faith in the truth. They love God and are rich in faith.

Why do you object tot he Lord havinhving the final say in salvation, can we not trust Him to do the right thing, or are you more capable of doing it better than Him in what way he has chosen to use?

 

[Van]

If election is unconditional, why is harder for a worldly rich person to enter the kingdom of God, than for a camel to go through an eye of a needle? See Matthew 19:24. The truth is obvious folks, just trust in the truth

 

[Van]

Y1 has posted yet another falsehood, claiming my view does not give God the final say? Good Grief, my view is God has the only say, we are in Christ by God's doing. 1 Corinthians 1:30.