Election, Predestination and Scripture

[MennoSota]

just a quick reminder, the subject of this thread is the biblical truth that our individual election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth. We were saved by grace through faith. The advocates of fake theology say that is not true, but offer no biblical support. So they change the subject.

When God chose before the foundation of the world, what conditions were we required to meet at that time. If you have scripture that lays out the conditions God required from us before the foundations of the world had been established, I would love to read them.
Before the foundations of the world...did God sit down with Van and have a conversation saying..."I am going to choose you, but...you have to do these works on your own before I choose you."? Will he say "I lied about choosing you. You didn't do all the things I required from you so now I won't choose you."? "By the way, that's my final choice. Sorry for waffling." Is that how the conditional election works,

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those the Redeemer would redeem. No individuals were chosen at that time. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 precludes individual election from the beginning unless conditioned on faith in the truth.
Did I say our election was based on works? Nope - so another charge to change the subject.
Did I say God did not tell the truth? Nope - so another charge to change the subject.

See a pattern folks?

God chose individuals for salvation from the beginning through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, thus a conditional election. We lived without mercy before becoming a chosen people. Thus our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 1 Peter 2:9-10. God chose us as individuals poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

Unconditional Election is fake theology

 

[TCassidy]

Unconditional Election is fake theology

Yet you can't tell us what condition you met that required God to save you.

 

[JonShaff]

Yet you can't tell us what condition you met that required God to save you.

"meeting a condition" is not accurately stating what the OP said.

He said God's election is "through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"

 

[TCassidy]

"meeting a condition" is not accurately stating what the OP said.

He said God's election is "through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"

If election is not unconditional, then it is conditional. So my question stands. What condition did Van meet that obligated God to save him?

It is a very simple question. There really is no need for obfuscation.

 

[JonShaff]

If election is not unconditional, then it is conditional. So my question stands. What condition did Van meet that obligated God to save him?

It is a very simple question. There really is no need for obfuscation.

The Condition is that a person is "In Christ"

 

[Robert William]

Romans 9! Romans 9!

Romans 9-11 is national election of a piece of land and people who would fill it As God acts in space and time.

God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...To begin a nation that would Eventually birth the Messiah. God didn't choose Egypt, God didn't choose the Amorites, He didn't choose the Moabites. He didn't choose the Jebusites. Although they were all equally as pagan. God chose the Israelites to Show Himself Mighty...

Deut. 7
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I know, I know. It's too simple isn't it. My prayer is that God would remove the scales from your eyes.

Here are some verses in agreement.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[TCassidy]

The Condition is that a person is "In Christ"

So a person is elect because he is in Christ. Are people in Christ before they are saved? 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[JonShaff]

So a person is elect because he is in Christ. Are people in Christ before they are saved? 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

LOL...You asked what is the condition...that is the condition...that we be found "In Christ"

Philippians 3:8-9
I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

 

[Robert William]

If election is not unconditional, then it is conditional. So my question stands. What condition did Van meet that obligated God to save him?

It is a very simple question. There really is no need for obfuscation.

Mr. Cassidy, very tricky thinking.

unconditional

[uhn-kuh n-dish-uh-nl]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
not limited by conditions; absolute :
an unconditional promise.

Unconditional Election | carm

 

[Van]

Yet you can't tell us what condition you met that required God to save you.

Yet another effort to change the subject. It seems the Calvinists, although different models, are all from the same brand - charge-o-matic.

Did I say God was required to save anyone? Nope - so yet another deflection, another change of subject.

See a pattern folks?

God chose individuals for salvation from the beginning through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, thus a conditional election. We lived without mercy before becoming a chosen people. Thus our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 1 Peter 2:9-10. God chose us as individuals poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

Unconditional Election is fake theology

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, we all know what the word means. But I still have not received an answer.

And there is nothing "tricky" about my thinking. It seems patently obvious to me, not to mention anyone with even modest cognitive reasoning skills.

Conditional: you must meet a condistion.

Unconditional: there is no condition you can meet.

Ipso facto. QED

 

[TCassidy]

Yet another effort to change the subject.

And yet another attempt to dodge the question. Which, by the way, you brought up. I did not change the subject. You brought it up.

Van said: ↑
Unconditional Election is fake theology

Do you care to answer the question or just keep dodging, weaving, sidestepping, and throwing up a smoke screen?

 

[TCassidy]

LOL...You asked what is the condition...that is the condition...that we be found "In Christ"

So you believe a person is "in Christ" before he is saved? How does that work? How can a lost person be "in Christ?" And if that person is "in Christ" before he is saved, what changes when he gets saved?

 

[JonShaff]

So you believe a person is "in Christ" before he is saved? How does that work? How can a lost person be "in Christ?" And if that person is "in Christ" before he is saved, what changes when he gets saved?

Maybe i'm not being clear (good chance that is true). A person is Placed "In Christ" when they Believe/Faith in Him. God Chose before the Foundation of the World that HIs elect would be the One's who are "In Christ". Therefore, the condition for God's election is conditional upon a person being in Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Maybe i'm not being clear (good chance that is true). A person is Placed "In Christ" when they Believe/Faith in Him. God Chose before the Foundation of the World that HIs elect would be the One's who are "In Christ". Therefore, the condition for God's election is conditional upon a person being in Christ.

But you said we are elect because we are "in Christ." But Paul says, in Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

He seems to be saying he keeps on, enduring hardship, for the sake of the elect who, according to him, are not yet saved, but he keeps preaching so that they may obtain salvation which is "in Christ."

You say the elect are "in Christ" but Paul says they are not yet "in Christ" but he keeps on preaching so that they may be in Christ.

Again, do you think Paul was wrong? Are the elect already "in Christ" or not?

 

[JonShaff]

But you said we are elect because we are "in Christ." But Paul says, in Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

He seems to be saying he keeps on, enduring hardship, for the sake of the elect who, according to him, are not yet saved, but he keeps preaching so that they may obtain salvation which is "in Christ."

You say the elect are "in Christ" but Paul says they are not yet "in Christ" but he keeps on preaching so that they may be in Christ.

Again, do you think Paul was wrong? Are the elect already "in Christ" or not?

Ahhhh...i see what you are saying here, my fault for the confusion

I'm always laboring for more people to come to know Christ as their Lord and Savior. I do not believe Paul is talking about an Unveiled group of people out there who do not yet know they are elect, but will find out once the Gospel is Shared. I think he is simply talking about his laborious efforts sharing the Gospel and his Focus is two-fold...Glorifying God by preaching Christ and souls being saved...and Concerning himself with the souls of mankind, that they would come to Christ as Lord and Savior. IMO

 

[TCassidy]

Ahhhh...i see what you are saying here, my fault for the confusion

I'm always laboring for more people to come to know Christ as their Lord and Savior. I do not believe Paul is talking about an Unveiled group of people out there who do not yet know they are elect, but will find out once the Gospel is Shared. I think he is simply talking about his laborious efforts sharing the Gospel and his Focus is two-fold...Glorifying God by preaching Christ and souls being saved...and Concerning himself with the souls of mankind, that they would come to Christ as Lord and Savior. IMO

So, are the lost elect "in Christ" or not? If so, why did Paul say what he said.

 

[Van]

I see TC continues to ask the same question based on the same falsehood over and over. The topic is Election conditioned on faith in the truth. TC asks how can God condition His election based on faith in the truth. Is this a work and therefore not of grace? Now have I quoted Romans 4:4? Yes. So why does He ask what scripture plainly answers. One thing about liberals, when they are charging others, they are describing themselves. (dodging, weaving, sidestepping, and throwing up a smoke screen.)

Does scripture tell us at least part of the basis for God crediting Abraham's faith as righteousness? Yes. Did I quote those verses already in this thread. But again, TC asks the same question over and over again. He believed in the promises of God. The selection is by faith in order that it be according to grace. Did Abraham waver in unbelief? Nope

Does God choose those that are rich in faith? Yes. How about those that love God? Yes.

But all these scriptural answers are "sidestepped" ignored, dodged and obfuscated under a smoke screen of false charges.

Go figure.

 

[MennoSota]

The Condition is that a person is "In Christ"

???

God chooses who is in Christ without setting a condition. It's still unconditional.