Election, Predestination and Scripture

[Van]

Because God is Sovereign and you are not.
Your argument has nothing to so with conditional election. Your argument is that you demand God do what you demand. Your argument is for your will to usurp God's will.
The Bible soundly rejects your man-centered claims.

Can anyone discern any truth in the above packet of falsehoods?
Did anyone claim God is not Sovereign? Nope. Thus false charge #1
Did my argument have nothing to do with Conditional Election? Nope because we are chosen through faith. False charge #2
Did I say God must choose or save me because in my opinion I believe? Nope - God decides whose faith to credit as righteousness. Thus false charge #3
Did I say my will usurps God's will? Nope - False charge #4 Christians like Christ say "Thy will be done."
Does the bible say we are chosen through faith in the truth? Yes Thus false charge #5 is that the Bible is wrong at 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:5.

Yet again the same play is run from the same playbook, deflect misrepresent, obfuscate and disparage. Let him or her that has an ear....

 

[MennoSota]

Can anyone discern any truth in the above packet of falsehoods?
Did anyone claim God is not Sovereign? Nope. Thus false charge #1
Did my argument have nothing to do with Conditional Election? Nope because we are chosen through faith. False charge #2
Did I say God must choose or save me because in my opinion I believe? Nope - God decides whose faith to credit as righteousness. Thus false charge #3
Did I say my will usurps God's will? Nope - False charge #4 Christians like Christ say "Thy will be done."
Does the bible say we are chosen through faith in the truth? Yes Thus false charge #5 is that the Bible is wrong at 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:5.

Yet again the same play is run from the same playbook, deflect misrepresent, obfuscate and disparage. Let him or her that has an ear....

Will you bow to God's choice over all things without any conditions needing to be met?

 

[Van]

Note the effort to change the subject from Conditional Election. The Bible is clear, we are chosen through faith in the truth. God chose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.

They have just the one play and they run it non-stop. Deflect misrepresent, obfuscate and disparage

But note the absence of any biblical support for the fake theology being hidden in the smoke screen.

 

[utilyan]

You don't seem to be able to grasp what I said.

Richness is not a financial number. If that were so, the Centurion who showed great faith could never have been saved. He was very wealthy when it comes to money. He was very powerful among men.
So, the rich man that Yeshua is talking about must be someone who pridefully thinks he can control his own destiny (ie someone who thinks he can choose God and have God applaud him for such a great choice). That kind of prideful spirit has no place at the banquet table with God.

Finally, no one who has been adopted by God goes about seeking license to sin. To infer such, as you have done, is to be a moron. Thus I find your comments moronic.

Did Jesus ask the rich man to follow him?

 

[MennoSota]

Did Jesus ask the rich man to follow him?

What's your point?

Was the rich man able to follow Jesus?

 

[MennoSota]

Note the effort to change the subject from Conditional Election. The Bible is clear, we are chosen through faith in the truth. God chose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.

They have just the one play and they run it non-stop. Deflect misrepresent, obfuscate and disparage

But note the absence of any biblical support for the fake theology being hidden in the smoke screen.

The Bible is clear...we are chosen by God's grace and by His grace alone.
Faith is exhibited after grace has been given because faith is God's gift to His adopted children.

Van, a tome of scripture has been shared with you. Why do you deny the volumes provided to show your position is impotent and of no substance?

Despite your desperate attempt to feign a biblical basis for your views that no one contests, your empty claims hold no substance.

 

[utilyan]

What's your point?

Was the rich man able to follow Jesus?

Point is you believe Jesus was dumb enough to ask. Also if being prideful is condition for not being chosen are you not totally depraved? are you a better quality person then that rich man?

You sound pretty puffed up already believing yourself superior to that rich man and present company.

 

[MennoSota]

Point is you believe Jesus was dumb enough to ask. Also if being prideful is condition for not being chosen are you not totally depraved? are you a better quality person then that rich man?

You sound pretty puffed up already believing yourself superior to that rich man and present company.

Blah, blah, blah...

Why do you call Yeshua dumb?

Where do I list a condition.

I state that rich does not seem to mean financial wealth.

 

[utilyan]

Blah, blah, blah...

Why do you call Yeshua dumb?

Where do I list a condition.

I state that rich does not seem to mean financial wealth.

Your the one calling him dumb. Because according to the theology you obviously don't even believe the only quality lacking was being chosen elect, it didn't matter if he was saintly or diabolic. Being rich even in your stretched out definition doesn't disqualify him from being "CHOSEN".

In other words your claim well hey before being "regenerate" you were not "rich". That you believe yourself to have earned your way by superior quality.

 

[MennoSota]

Your the one calling him dumb. Because according to the theology you obviously don't even believe the only quality lacking was being chosen elect, it didn't matter if he was saintly or diabolic. Being rich even in your stretched out definition doesn't disqualify him from being "CHOSEN".

In other words your claim well hey before being "regenerate" you were not "rich". That you believe yourself to have earned your way by superior quality.

You don't grasp how God breaks us when He chooses to adopt us. It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves.
It is so blessed when God breaks us down to abject humility when he chooses us.
It's funny that you don't understand. Why is it that you don't understand this, utilyan?

 

[utilyan]

You don't grasp how God breaks us when He chooses to adopt us. It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves.
It is so blessed when God breaks us down to abject humility when he chooses us.
It's funny that you don't understand. Why is it that you don't understand this, utilyan?

Just cause you are a drunk and have a boo-hoo moment hitting rock bottom and then found Jesus doesn't mean thats the only absolute method God chooses anyone.

"It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves."

You just flip-flopped your answers.

You first said "No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom."

Now it doesn't matter? please..... get that story straight.


How hard is it for a rich man would have been a stupid statement, because it would be just as hard for anyone and anybody. In fact the word hard would not be used, No one enters, period. because its on being chosen.

 

[MennoSota]

Just cause you are a drunk and have a boo-hoo moment hitting rock bottom and then found Jesus doesn't mean thats the only absolute method God chooses anyone.

"It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves."

You just flip-flopped your answers.

You first said "No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom."

Now it doesn't matter? please..... get that story straight.


How hard is it for a rich man would have been a stupid statement, because it would be just as hard for anyone and anybody. In fact the word hard would not be used, No one enters, period. because its on being chosen.

Again, your inability to comprehend is not my problem.

 

[utilyan]

Again, your inability to comprehend is not my problem.

Of course its not your problem you have a selfish mindset. All you do is gloat. "neener-neener" I'm elect.

You wouldn't help anyone much less with that utter ignorance you call Calvinism.


You said these two statements:

"No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom."

"It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves."


Meaning someone who thinks they are rich.........CAN be elect and chosen.


Every time we get to a point of having to explain yourself of a contradiction, "we are rebels who want to enslave God" "only the elect can comprehend"

You attack character and then get upset when you cant handle what you dish out.

 

[Van]

On and on the Cal acolyte repeats their mantra, first a tome of scriptures support Unconditional Election. Look back over the thread folks, there is no support to unconditional election for salvation. They point to unconditional election of babies in the womb for God's purpose such as ministry or so the older will serve the younger, and then having proved "A" they claim "B" has been proven. Ludicrous. They deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13 so to sidestep and change the subject they charge me with denying "unreferenced" scripture. Pure twaddle.

Folks the case as been made, and the other side has tried to hide the truth with a smoke stream of falsehoods.
God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth.
God credits the faith of people as righteousness, including the faith of Paul.
It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God which would not be the case if election was unconditional.
God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him.

 

[MennoSota]

Of course its not your problem you have a selfish mindset. All you do is gloat. "neener-neener" I'm elect.

You wouldn't help anyone much less with that utter ignorance you call Calvinism.


You said these two statements:

"No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom."

"It doesn't matter how "rich" we imagine ourselves."


Meaning someone who thinks they are rich.........CAN be elect and chosen.


Every time we get to a point of having to explain yourself of a contradiction, "we are rebels who want to enslave God" "only the elect can comprehend"

You attack character and then get upset when you cant handle what you dish out.

Utilyan, I don't even know what you are griping about.
Are you desperately arguing for a condition that must be met before God humbles us at the point of His choosing to save us?
You strike me as a person who doesn't quite know what he's arguing, but he doesn't like the idea of having no control over the matter.

 

[Yeshua1]

On and on the Cal acolyte repeats their mantra, first a tome of scriptures support Unconditional Election. Look back over the thread folks, there is no support to unconditional election for salvation. They point to unconditional election of babies in the womb for God's purpose such as ministry or so the older will serve the younger, and then having proved "A" they claim "B" has been proven. Ludicrous. They deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13 so to sidestep and change the subject they charge me with denying "unreferenced" scripture. Pure twaddle.

Folks the case as been made, and the other side has tried to hide the truth with a smoke stream of falsehoods.
God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth.
God credits the faith of people as righteousness, including the faith of Paul.
It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God which would not be the case if election was unconditional.
God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him.

Die to the fall, all of us as sinnenrs will always reject Jesus to save us!Must be chosen to receive salvation by God first!

 

[Yeshua1]

Utilyan, I don't even know what you are griping about.
Are you desperately arguing for a condition that must be met before God humbles us at the point of His choosing to save us?
You strike me as a person who doesn't quite know what he's arguing, but he doesn't like the idea of having no control over the matter.

Calvinists SHOULD be the most humble,as we more so than all others know just how bad we really are, and how great Jesus is to save us!

 

[Van]

Die to the fall, all of us as sinnenrs will always reject Jesus to save us!Must be chosen to receive salvation by God first!

Say what you will Y1, but scripture says God chose us for salvation through faith in the truth.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan, I don't even know what you are griping about.
Are you desperately arguing for a condition that must be met before God humbles us at the point of His choosing to save us?
You strike me as a person who doesn't quite know what he's arguing, but he doesn't like the idea of having no control over the matter.

That is the point Menno. When you say "No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom." that is a condition you are saying that needs to be met.

So you have to re-explain what does Jesus mean when it is HARDER for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

It cannot be harder or easier for rich man because under your belief there cannot be a condition to "the point of his choosing to save us".

 

[MennoSota]

That is the point Menno. When you say "No one who thinks they are rich will ever enter the Kingdom." that is a condition you are saying that needs to be met.

So you have to re-explain what does Jesus mean when it is HARDER for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

It cannot be harder or easier for rich man because under your belief there cannot be a condition to "the point of his choosing to save us".

No I'm not. I'm saying that God humbles everyone he chooses as His child. If a person remains prideful they have not been brought to repentance and are not born again. God has not chosen them.
The humility is a response that is a reaction to God's work.

Utilyan you keep putting the cart before the horse.