Spiritual Interpretation pt5.

[Iconoclast]

In episode 4. Little progress was made. We will try and explore those scriptures leading up to Rev.6:12-17.....is it understood as literal activity?
That is....stars falling to earth? The heavens rolling up like a scroll?
Or is this language being employed to convey that a literal change of governmental administration has taken place?
Once again...random tweets, and unfounded assertions are not welcome.
If you cannot quote verses that back up what you say....open your own thread and have a tweetfest.
Discussion concerning Jesus being cut off in the middle of the 70thvweek, that is....in the midst of the week....3.5 yrs into His public ministry seems to fit the bill . Anyone disputing this needs to answer Philip Mauro who did a solid job of working through Dan9:24-27.
Premillennialism beliving persons are welcome to comment scripturally at any time....waiting for the rapture should not restrain you from commenting on these texts.

 

[Covenanter]

My posts #5 & #7 from Spiritual Interpretation....part two

My contention is that according to 1 Cor. 2, spiritual interpretation sees prophecy as the eternal realities in Christ & his redeemed people of all nationalities (aka the Church) rather than the natural/literal interpretation that focuses on the nation of Israel.

#5
The whole concept of the kingdom of God requires an omnipotent, eternal, unchanging God. The LORD is King.

In the purposes of God, he did not establish an immediate earthly kingdom. Jesus' victory is complete, he rose from the dead and ascended to his throne. But at present his kingdom is operating in the spiritual realm. We have new, spiritual, eternal life, so are living in two realms, spiritual and earthly.

Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD. Previously, when the Israelites demanded a king, that was a rejection of the kingship of God. But God cannot cease to be King. In the hundreds of years when there was no king over Israel, was God's promise broken? Jeremiah 33:19-26 Kings and priests were human agents performing as types of Christ.

Futurist doctrine is based on a serious misunderstanding of eternal, spiritual reality.
-------------
#7
If earthly Jerusalem were intended by the OC prophecy, we should expect by Christ and his resurrection and ascension to David's throne to establish a restored earthly kingdom. We would not expect the kingdom of Israel to be abandoned for 2000 years. In fact we would expect the prophesied state to exist seventy weeks from the restoration, after the completion of messiah's saving work. It didn't happen.

We should therefore look to Jesus and his saving work, and the teaching of the Apostles for their understanding of prophecy, not what we may consider fulfilled prophecy should be.

 

[kyredneck]

We will try and explore those scriptures leading up to Rev.6:12-17

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1

16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2

.....................................................................

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1

Seems to have been a common occurrence with some of his prophets to have been transported 'in the Spirit', and like Paul, I can't help but think that they, the prophets themselves, didn't really know if it was actually in the body or not. Regardless, it was real to them.

2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12

39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8

1 ....I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.
2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne; Rev 4

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Rev 21

12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place.
14 So the Spirit lifted me up, and took me away; and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; and the hand of Jehovah was strong upon me. Ezek 3

3 And he put forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the gate of the inner court that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Ezek 8

1 Moreover the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of Jehovah`s house, which looketh eastward: and behold, at the door of the gate five and twenty men; and I saw in the midst of them Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people.
24 And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. Ezek 11

1 The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of Jehovah, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Ezek 37

2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south. Ezek 40

5 And the Spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. Ezek 43

12 And it will come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of Jehovah will carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he will slay me: but I thy servant fear Jehovah from my youth. 1 Ki 18

16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there are with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master, lest the Spirit of Jehovah hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Ki 2:16

....and I've probably missed some....

 

[kyredneck]

17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1
1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks:
8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These things saith the first and the last, who was dead, and lived again:
12 and to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword:
18 And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass: Rev2
1 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth:
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Rev 3

 

[kyredneck]

Four sets of seven:

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come. Rev 6
6 And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev 8
4 And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. Rev 10
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth. Rev 16

 

[kyredneck]

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach thou it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, flowing with milk and honey, and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxed fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and despise me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31 [see Dt 32]


3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages. Rev 15

 

[Iconoclast]

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach thou it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, flowing with milk and honey, and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxed fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and despise me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31 [see Dt 32]


3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages. Rev 15

Good work Kyred and Covenanter.
The language is full of symbolism both in numbers and metaphors.
from thread#3
I am not suggesting an allegorical form of interpretation where each word has a hidden meaning.
What others have seen here is a pattern.
God uses this language of sun moon and stars to say that when God brings down a nation, it is as complete a change as if the literal stars and light bearers have ceased....
In the day of Joseph it spoke of the nation bowing down to him.
In isa13....Babylon is judged.
In isa34.....Edom is judged
In joel2....acts 2.....mt24.......the Israelite theocracy is being judged and replaced by the Kingdom rule from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
Hebrews12.....rev11.

It is figurative language, but it points to a chance in administration....which has quite literally happened.
With each "day of the Lord"......figures of speech are repeated.....woman in travail, hands and feet hanging down, birds of prey feeding on carcasses, sun ,moon ,stars, not giving light,heaven rolling up like a scroll.....
When I check in my premill books I do not see much help on these portions or figures of speech.
that makes me think that system of teaching cannot handle "spiritual thoughts" in relation to the symbols and metaphors used.

The sun, moon, and stars, are not really speaking about the Sun, moon, or stars...

 

[Iconoclast]

was helping out someone finding a sermon...came across this comment from a man in florida;

“ Jesus is the FINAL Temple! ”
Despite what some (Pre-Trib/Pre-Mill Dispensationalists) may profess, there will be no third temple in Jerusalem built by hands. And if some try to build such an abomination, it will be a monument to unbelief. Acts 15:14-19 does not speak of the building of a third (Millennial) temple. This is because JESUS Himself is the total fulfillment of what the previous 2 Jewish temples signified. The REAL has come. The shadows and types have passed. Jesus is the Destroyer of the earthly sanctuaries and the builder of the true spiritual sanctuary: Himself and His Church!

then found this sermon summary;
The consideration of the identity of the "people of God" in the light of Christ's fulfillment of sacred space extends beyond the Jew/Gentile question to the relation that now exists between Israel and the Church. All Christians acknowledge that, in some sense, the Church has supplanted Israel in the present age of fulfillment. But they differ greatly in terms of how that circumstance is viewed and understood. Dispensationalism sees in the Church's present ascendancy the abiding promise of future fulfillment for Israel. On the other hand, Covenant Theology sees in the Church a new "economy" of the one "people of God" formerly expressed in the covenant nation of Israel. Covenant Theology emphasizes constancy in the identity of the "people of God" as much as (perhaps more than) transformation. This is especially true with respect to the constituency of God's covenant people.

 

[Iconoclast]

My posts #5 & #7 from Spiritual Interpretation....part two

My contention is that according to 1 Cor. 2, spiritual interpretation sees prophecy as the eternal realities in Christ & his redeemed people of all nationalities (aka the Church) rather than the natural/literal interpretation that focuses on the nation of Israel.

#5
The whole concept of the kingdom of God requires an omnipotent, eternal, unchanging God. The LORD is King.

In the purposes of God, he did not establish an immediate earthly kingdom. Jesus' victory is complete, he rose from the dead and ascended to his throne. But at present his kingdom is operating in the spiritual realm. We have new, spiritual, eternal life, so are living in two realms, spiritual and earthly.

Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD. Previously, when the Israelites demanded a king, that was a rejection of the kingship of God. But God cannot cease to be King. In the hundreds of years when there was no king over Israel, was God's promise broken? Jeremiah 33:19-26 Kings and priests were human agents performing as types of Christ.

Futurist doctrine is based on a serious misunderstanding of eternal, spiritual reality.
-------------
#7
If earthly Jerusalem were intended by the OC prophecy, we should expect by Christ and his resurrection and ascension to David's throne to establish a restored earthly kingdom. We would not expect the kingdom of Israel to be abandoned for 2000 years. In fact we would expect the prophesied state to exist seventy weeks from the restoration, after the completion of messiah's saving work. It didn't happen.

We should therefore look to Jesus and his saving work, and the teaching of the Apostles for their understanding of prophecy, not what we may consider fulfilled prophecy should be.

Jesus is on the throne now...Peter taught it in Acts2

 

[Covenanter]

@John of Japan

And you still haven't justified the separation of week 70 from weeks 1-69.

Yes I have, you just don't agree.

John, I have read through all your posts from the time you promised -

Ask me any direct question on any Scripture and I'll answer it.

and I can't find a direct answer. Perhaps you can point me to the post - or simply give a direct answer.

 

[John of Japan]

@John of Japan


John, I have read through all your posts from the time you promised -

and I can't find a direct answer. Perhaps you can point me to the post - or simply give a direct answer.

Once again, the text in Daniel divides the 70 weeks into three. So I do. Period and end of story.

 

[kyredneck]

It is figurative language, but it points to a chance in administration....which has quite literally happened.
With each "day of the Lord"......figures of speech are repeated.....woman in travail, hands and feet hanging down, birds of prey feeding on carcasses, sun ,moon ,stars, not giving light,heaven rolling up like a scroll.....
When I check in my premill books I do not see much help on these portions or figures of speech.
that makes me think that system of teaching cannot handle "spiritual thoughts" in relation to the symbols and metaphors used.

The sun, moon, and stars, are not really speaking about the Sun, moon, or stars...

Icon, have you ever read these [OUTSTANDING] essays?:

Revelation, the Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

The Covenant Judgments of Revelation

...both by Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again, the text in Daniel divides the 70 weeks into three. So I do. Period and end of story.

God mainly used the plain and literal meaning and prophecy followed that to great extent, as Jesus literally fulfilled the OT prophecies, so what use that as way to view end time events?

 

[Covenanter]

@John of Japan


John, I have read through all your posts from the time you promised -

and I can't find a direct answer. Perhaps you can point me to the post - or simply give a direct answer.

Once again, the text in Daniel divides the 70 weeks into three. So I do. Period and end of story.

God mainly used the plain and literal meaning and prophecy followed that to great extent, as Jesus literally fulfilled the OT prophecies, so what use that as way to view end time events?

Good point @Yeshua1 , the plain & literal meaning of 70 weeks, 490 years, ends in the 30s AD, by which time Jesus had fulfilled all of Gabriel's prophecy in Dan. 9:24. The end times, aka last days, were beginning, as Peter proclaimed in Acts 2:16-17, & as the 70 weeks were coming to an end.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good point @Yeshua1 , the plain & literal meaning of 70 weeks, 490 years, ends in the 30s AD, by which time Jesus had fulfilled all of Gabriel's prophecy in Dan. 9:24. The end times, aka last days, were beginning, as Peter proclaimed in Acts 2:16-17, & as the 70 weeks were coming to an end.

Save that we MUST also factor in that per the time scale, he accomplished that on the 483 year, not 490!

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, have you ever read these [OUTSTANDING] essays?:

Revelation, the Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

The Covenant Judgments of Revelation

...both by Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.

No...but I will look at them this evening after work....I am certain that mt20 -25....if the full filament of the curses from Deut/Leviticus

 

[Iconoclast]

My posts #5 & #7 from Spiritual Interpretation....part two

My contention is that according to 1 Cor. 2, spiritual interpretation sees prophecy as the eternal realities in Christ & his redeemed people of all nationalities (aka the Church) rather than the natural/literal interpretation that focuses on the nation of Israel.

1 cor2 is very important to a proper understanding of all of scripture.
#5

The whole concept of the kingdom of God requires an omnipotent, eternal, unchanging God. The LORD is King.

Yes....nice and simple, but profound.

In the purposes of God, he did not establish an immediate earthly kingdom

.
Now this gets to the heart of the issue! I think The Kingdom has indeed begun. The reign is from Heaven but it takes in and includes this earth, with Jesus ruling in the midst of His enemies.....UNTIL-
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus' victory is complete

,
yes

he rose from the dead and ascended to his throne. But at present his kingdom is operating in the spiritual realm. We have new, spiritual, eternal life, so are living in two realms, spiritual and earthly.

That Spiritually it has taken place is clear...the earthly portion is the issue, the timing of remaining events.

Futurist doctrine is based on a serious misunderstanding of eternal, spiritual reality.

-------------
#7

If earthly Jerusalem were intended by the OC prophecy, we should expect by Christ and his resurrection and ascension to David's throne to establish a restored earthly kingdom. We would not expect the kingdom of Israel to be abandoned for 2000 years. In fact we would expect the prophesied state to exist seventy weeks from the restoration, after the completion of messiah's saving work. It didn't happen.

or it happens different than everyone expected.

We should therefore look to Jesus and his saving work, and the teaching of the Apostles for their understanding of prophecy, not what we may consider fulfilled prophecy should be.

yes..that would be nice and easy...

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, have you ever read these [OUTSTANDING] essays?:

Revelation, the Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

The Covenant Judgments of Revelation

...both by Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.

Thanks for posting these links Kyred...I do not see anyone trying to deal with these links, except perhaps to attack his early date for the writing of Revelation.
This is along the line of what I have been looking at for the last few years..
looking at the second one now...

I like this;

The average Christian doesn’t notice them because he doesn’t know his Old Testament very well; as proof of this I ask the reader to see how many of the OT covenant curses he or she can name.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, have you ever read these [OUTSTANDING] essays?:

Revelation, the Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

The Covenant Judgments of Revelation

...both by Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D.

These are the kind of thoughts a premill person will not begin to entertain;
This takes work, mental work to see it fit together.



So in the OT the creation of the old covenant was likened to the creation of heaven and earth (Is. 51:15-16). When violence was done to the old covenant it was likened to a return of heaven and earth to its early chaos before man was created (Jer. 4:19-26). Added to this, heaven and earth were the “witnesses” of God’s covenant with Israel (Deut. 30:15-20). Given this use of the creation/destruction of heaven and earth as covenant images, it should not be surprising that Isaiah 65-66 likens the destruction of God’s unfaithful old covenant people and establishment of a new covenant with a new people to the creation of a new heaven and earth. This is significant because Revelation’s images of a new heaven and earth are taken from Isaiah 65-66 (the only place in the OT that explicitly talks about a new heaven and earth).

Isaiah 65-66 speaks of the destruction of God’s old convent people and the full establishment of His new covenant people (in a new heaven and earth). Isaiah said that God’s rebellious old covenant people (Is. 65:2) would be destroyed and a people that were not called by God’s name, a people who did not seek God (Is. 65:1; cf 1 Peter 2:7-10), would then be established.

I was sought by those who did not ask for Me. I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’ to a nation that was not called by my name. I have stretched out My hand all day long to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, according to their own thoughts. A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face; who sacrifice in gardens, and burn incense on altars of brick…Therefore I will number you [the rebellious people] for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because, when I called you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear, but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight. Therefore thus says the LORD God: ‘behold My servants shall eat, but you shall be hungry; behold My servants shall drink, but you shall be thirsty; behold, My servants shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed; behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart, and wail for grief of spirit. You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; for the LORD God will slay you, and call His servants by another name; so that he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he who swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hidden from My eyes. For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. emphasis mine Is. 65:1-2, 12-17

In Romans Paul explicitly says that Isaiah 65-66 is contrasting old covenant Israel with God’s new covenant people (Rom. 10:19-21; cf. 9:21-33). God’s unfaithful old covenant people would be numbered for the sword (Is. 65:12) at the time His new covenant people would be established. This is the time when there would be a new heaven and earth (symbolic of the new covenant order, Is. 65:17). A parallel contrast to this mourning and rejoicing is shown in Revelation 18-19. In Revelation there is rejoicing as the bride becomes married (Rev. 19:1-9) at the time that there is mourning over the destruction of the harlot (Rev. 18:9-20). Isaiah shows this contrast between mourning and rejoicing of these two peoples (“Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart Is. 56:14). Isaiah says that God’s new covenant people would be called by a different name (“…for the LORD God will slay you and call His servants by another name” Is. 65:15); as it turned out, that different name was Christian. This happened at the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish nation (cf. Dan. 12:1-7). According to Isaiah this was the time that there would be a new heaven and earth (Is. 65:17-25).

The new heaven and earth in Revelation (and Isaiah) is not heaven. Notice, it still has unrighteous people in it, those outside the New (covenant) Jerusalem (Rev. 22:14-15). The new heaven and new earth is a symbolic representation of the post AD 70 spiritual order of this planet. The old covenant order (the old heaven and earth) flees and the new covenant order (the new heaven and earth) is established (Rev. 20:11; 21:1-2). One has to constantly remember that the truths of Revelation are communicated by way of symbols (Rev. 1:1). In the new heaven and earth hose who are part of the New Jerusalem bride have access to the tree and water of life (Rev. 22:1-2); those outside of the new covenant city do not. The New Jerusalem is a picture of the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:9-10) only those who are in the Lamb’s Book of Life are part of her (Rev. 21:22-27). Those who are not part of the New Jerusalem are not part of the new covenant. There is no more death for those inside the city (Rev. 21:1-4); those outside the city are already dead (spiritually separated from God). Unless they turn to the Lord and become part of the new covenant bride) will end up in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15; 21:7-8, 27; 22:14-15).

 

[kyredneck]

do not see anyone trying to deal with these links

You shouldn't expect it from the preterphobiacs. They despise anything that refutes their futurist fiction. I gave those links to YOU.

I'm busy with many things right now, but, let's discuss the things in these essays. We should have plenty of time early on in this thread before Squire shuts it down.

You agree with Duncan's intro?:

"Revelation is a book full of strange images and judgments. A number of these judgments are very similar to the plagues of Egypt (waters turned to blood, Rev. 16:5; frogs, Rev. 16:13; great hail, Rev. 16:21, etc.). Is there any special reason why Revelation uses the particular images that it does? I believe the answer to this question is a definite yes. The book of Revelation is borrowing many of the images for its judgments from the covenant curses that God said would come on His Old Covenant people when they broke the covenant.REVELATION: The Book of Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

By Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D."