Spiritual Interpretation pt5.

[Iconoclast]

You shouldn't expect it from the preterphobiacs. They despise anything that refutes their futurist fiction. I gave those links to YOU.

I'm busy with many things right now, but, let's discuss the things in these essays. We should have plenty of time early on in this thread before Squire shuts it down.

You agree with Duncan's intro?:

"Revelation is a book full of strange images and judgments. A number of these judgments are very similar to the plagues of Egypt (waters turned to blood, Rev. 16:5; frogs, Rev. 16:13; great hail, Rev. 16:21, etc.). Is there any special reason why Revelation uses the particular images that it does? I believe the answer to this question is a definite yes. The book of Revelation is borrowing many of the images for its judgments from the covenant curses that God said would come on His Old Covenant people when they broke the covenant.REVELATION: The Book of Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

By Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D."

Yes. I had only seen a few parallel verses before, like they sing the song of Moses.
I like how he develops the imagery of the plagues. It makes sense in light of Matthew 21:43....They failed to bring the fruit that was expected of them
THERE WAS NEVER A MORE APPROPRIATE TIME for the curses to come upon that nation then when they rejected Jesus.
The symbols of judgment fit the first century destruction better than trying to make scorpions be apache helicopters.

 

[kyredneck]

THERE WAS NEVER A MORE APPROPRIATE TIME

Hold that thought...

...I'll be hauling topsoil with my neighbor this morning, but, ..... "I'll be back".

 

[John of Japan]

Here's some great spiritual interpretation. See if you spiritualizers agree:

"The mayhem described in the book of Revelation is a reminder that, as we come close to our final destination, pressures become more severe, temptations become harder to resist, and more deeply rooted evils still need to be “cast down into the abyss”. The thousand years? This indicates that our spiritual rebirth and growth does not happen instantly. The destruction of Babylon? This corresponds to us letting go of the things that have previously dominated our thinking. The beast with seven heads and ten horns? This tells us that evils of our own making are still rising up and need to be overcome before we can reach our final destination."

 

[Iconoclast]

Here's some great spiritual interpretation. See if you spiritualizers agree:

"The mayhem described in the book of Revelation is a reminder that, as we come close to our final destination, pressures become more severe, temptations become harder to resist, and more deeply rooted evils still need to be “cast down into the abyss”. The thousand years? This indicates that our spiritual rebirth and growth does not happen instantly. The destruction of Babylon? This corresponds to us letting go of the things that have previously dominated our thinking. The beast with seven heads and ten horns? This tells us that evils of our own making are still rising up and need to be overcome before we can reach our final destination."

Here is the thing with those statements.They are unrelated to anything else in scripture. They do not connect scripture with scripture.
If I start a thread saying Jesus is the new Exodus...I can make a biblical case from scripture showing He is our Passover,the True manna,the true tabernacle,etc.
To just ascribe random meanings to words is not what is taking place.
The articles offered by Kyred show matches from ot.judgments, how the same language is used in the nt. Descriptions of judgment.
JOJ.....when do you see the covenant curses of Deut28-33...fulfilled upon the nation of Israel?
Do you see where the articles are making valid biblical interpretation at all?
If this man lays out his biblical case..where do you find fault with it?
Even if he does not get everything exactly correct,can you see that the verses offered are something to consider?
An example is Isaiah5....with Mt21.....can you see that one?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hold that thought...

...I'll be hauling topsoil with my neighbor this morning, but, ..... "I'll be back".

You got that line from the Terminator....

 

[Covenanter]

Here's some great spiritual interpretation. See if you spiritualizers agree:

"The mayhem described in the book of Revelation is a reminder that, as we come close to our final destination, pressures become more severe, temptations become harder to resist, and more deeply rooted evils still need to be “cast down into the abyss”. The thousand years? This indicates that our spiritual rebirth and growth does not happen instantly. The destruction of Babylon? This corresponds to us letting go of the things that have previously dominated our thinking. The beast with seven heads and ten horns? This tells us that evils of our own making are still rising up and need to be overcome before we can reach our final destination."

OK, I'll bite, without knowing your source.

That is totally false spiritualising - mysticism - that could be written without reference to Revelation, Scripture or Christianity.

Spiritualising is seeing Christ, his real spiritual kingdom & his redeemed people in OT prophecy, rather than a carnal focus on the nation of Israel & an earthly kingdom. 1 Cor. 2, 2 Cor. 3

 

[John of Japan]

Here is the thing with those statements.They are unrelated to anything else in scripture. They do not connect scripture with scripture.
If I start a thread saying Jesus is the new Exodus...I can make a biblical case from scripture showing He is our Passover,the True manna,the true tabernacle,etc.
To just ascribe random meanings to words is not what is taking place.

Good for you. You showed discernment. Many who interpret "spiritually" do not. This is actually a quote about the interpretation method of Swedenborg.

The articles offered by Kyred show matches from ot.judgments, how the same language is used in the nt. Descriptions of judgment.

I have him on ignore. His attitude is one of many reasons I'm not a preterist.

JOJ.....when do you see the covenant curses of Deut28-33...fulfilled upon the nation of Israel?
Do you see where the articles are making valid biblical interpretation at all?
If this man lays out his biblical case..where do you find fault with it?
Even if he does not get everything exactly correct,can you see that the verses offered are something to consider?
An example is Isaiah5....with Mt21.....can you see that one?

I will answer this as soon as you've answered the two I've asked you several times each. I see no sense in interacting with you if all the interacting is mine.

 

[John of Japan]

OK, I'll bite, without knowing your source.

That is totally false spiritualising - mysticism - that could be written without reference to Revelation, Scripture or Christianity.

Spiritualising is seeing Christ, his real spiritual kingdom & his redeemed people in OT prophecy, rather than a carnal focus on the nation of Israel & an earthly kingdom. 1 Cor. 2, 2 Cor. 3

Good job of discernment. The quote was from a Swedenborgian website: Bible Interpretation : Sacred Scripture : Spiritual Wisdom

There are many groups that spiritualize, and they all have their own methods. It's much easier to simply interpret with the grammatical-historical method and let the text say what it says.

But as long as you brought it up, you apparently have no idea what carnality is if you think a defense of the literal Abrahamic covenant as it involves Israel (literally) to this day is carnality. And I find it ridiculous in the extreme to consider an earthly reign of Christ to be carnal. "Carnal" and "physical" are not synonyms, unless you're a Gnostic.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good job of discernment. The quote was from a Swedenborgian website: Bible Interpretation : Sacred Scripture : Spiritual Wisdom

There are many groups that spiritualize, and they all have their own methods. It's much easier to simply interpret with the grammatical-historical method and let the text say what it says.

But as long as you brought it up, you apparently have no idea what carnality is if you think a defense of the literal Abrahamic covenant as it involves Israel (literally) to this day is carnality. And I find it ridiculous in the extreme to consider an earthly reign of Christ to be carnal. "Carnal" and "physical" are not synonyms, unless you're a Gnostic.

The OT prophets foretold that when the King Messiah was to reign, that all nations would come up to Him to pay Him homage, thatthe law of God would be written upon all hearts , that all weapons would be destroyed and turned into ploughshares, none of that was meant to be literal? And daniel saw that when the rock came, all the Kingdoms of man would be crushed then?

 

[Yeshua1]

You shouldn't expect it from the preterphobiacs. They despise anything that refutes their futurist fiction. I gave those links to YOU.

I'm busy with many things right now, but, let's discuss the things in these essays. We should have plenty of time early on in this thread before Squire shuts it down.

You agree with Duncan's intro?:

"Revelation is a book full of strange images and judgments. A number of these judgments are very similar to the plagues of Egypt (waters turned to blood, Rev. 16:5; frogs, Rev. 16:13; great hail, Rev. 16:21, etc.). Is there any special reason why Revelation uses the particular images that it does? I believe the answer to this question is a definite yes. The book of Revelation is borrowing many of the images for its judgments from the covenant curses that God said would come on His Old Covenant people when they broke the covenant.REVELATION: The Book of Fulfillment of the Covenant Curses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy

By Duncan McKenzie, Ph.D."

End day events right before the Second Coming!

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

A.D. 70? No!

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. –Mt. 10.15

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. –Mt. 11.22

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. –Mt. 12.36

The men of Nineveh shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. –Mt. 12.41, 42

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; -Ro. 2.5 (cf. Rev. 6.17)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Pe. 2.9

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. -2Pe. 3.7

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. -1 Jn. 4.17

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. –Jude 1.6

 

[percho]

Here is the thing with those statements.They are unrelated to anything else in scripture. They do not connect scripture with scripture.
If I start a thread saying Jesus is the new Exodus...I can make a biblical case from scripture showing He is our Passover,the True manna,the true tabernacle,etc.
To just ascribe random meanings to words is not what is taking place.
The articles offered by Kyred show matches from ot.judgments, how the same language is used in the nt. Descriptions of judgment.
JOJ.....when do you see the covenant curses of Deut28-33...fulfilled upon the nation of Israel?
Do you see where the articles are making valid biblical interpretation at all?
If this man lays out his biblical case..where do you find fault with it?
Even if he does not get everything exactly correct,can you see that the verses offered are something to consider?
An example is Isaiah5....with Mt21.....can you see that one?

Are we still wandering in the wilderness or have we entered the promised land?

The vineyard disappeared and began to be scattered, during Isaiah's lifetime and the pleasant plant of good and bad figs were left. The good figs which would be planted in Christ and the bad to be scattered.

Is5Mt21 ? What is the nation singular that the kingdom of God will be given to?

Do we see it in Ezek 37? Do we see it in Hosea 1:10,11 Where it is said of the very same people to whom it was said, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 11:1,2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

How did God punish the ones he foreknew, the only known of all the families of the earth?

Does God gather them all at once or is he gathering the some as firstfruits and will gather the balance at his coming?

You said something about Christ as the Passover above.

The Passover was the 14th day of the first month and all the sacred assembly days of rest, other than the sacred assembly, the day of rest of the seventh day following the six days of creation came after the Passover.

Christ our Passover sacrificed for us was sacrificed on a specific day and the reality of the shadow of the sacred assembly days could not be a reality, until Christ the Lamb of God died for the sin of the world.

I believe we have seen the reality in Christ, of only the first three sacred assembly days with the reality of the others still future in Christ.

The first three began salvation, Unleavened and in the calling out of the firstfruit of the Spirit.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Was the Spirit poured out upon all flesh that day? How long do the last days, last? Does all mean, all?

John 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Why did Jesus say that of that day? Was that a sacred assembly day?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Just posting some of my thoughts right or wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

The OT prophets foretold that when the King Messiah was to reign, that all nations would come up to Him to pay Him homage, thatthe law of God would be written upon all hearts , that all weapons would be destroyed and turned into ploughshares, none of that was meant to be literal? And daniel saw that when the rock came, all the Kingdoms of man would be crushed then?[/QUOTE]
Do you think this big rock is going to be literal?


God the Son has been granted the rule of all the world, and all nations will come under His messianic kingship
(see also Ps. 22:27-31; 46:4, 10; 65:2; 66:4; 68:31-32;
72; 86:9; 102:15-22; 138:4-5; 145:10-11).
Whatever opposition is offered against His Kingdom will be crushed absolutely. And the installation of Christ as universal King, prophesied in this passage, clearly took place at Christ’s First Coming, through His birth, life,
death, resurrection, and ascension to glory (this can be confirmed by simply looking up the numerous New Testament quotations of Psalms 2 and 110, both of which are about Christ’s kingship.


from Days of Vengeance;

The point of the quotation here is that the Christian overcomers, in this age, are promised a share in the messianic reign of Jesus Christ, in time and on earth. In spite of all opposition, God has set up His King over the
nations (cf. Ps. 2:1-6). Those who are obedient to His commands will rule the world, reconstructing it for His glory in terms of His laws. Psalm 2 shows God laughing and sneering at the pitiful attempts of the wicked to fight against and overthrow His Kingdom. He has already given His Son “all authority in heaven and earth,” and the King is with His Church until the end of the age (Matt. 28:18-20)! Is it possible that the King will be defeated? He has, in fact, warned all earthly rulers to submit to His government, or perish (Ps. 2:10-
12). And the same is true of His Church. The nation that will not serve us will perish (Isa. 60:12); all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet (Ps. 47:1-3) – promises made originally to Israel, but now to
be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church.


24. Psalms 2 and 110 are the two most quoted Psalms in the New Testament. For Psalm 2, see Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9:35; John 1:49; Acts 4:25-
26; 13:33; Phil. 2:12; Heb. 1:2,5; 5:5; Rev. 2:26-27; 11:18; 12:5; 19:15, 19. For Psalm 110, see Matt. 22:44; 26:64; Mark 12:36; 14:62; 16:19; Luke 20:42-43; 22:69;
John 12:34; Acts 2:34-35; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 15:25; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 13; 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:3, 17, 21; 8:1; 10:12-13; 12:2.

 

[Iconoclast]

As premillennial contributors have ran out of steam..."I will put in play" portions of Days of Vengeance...commenting on Chapter 6 for your consideration;
6:11-14
that Israel’s time has run out: The stars fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind (Job 9:7; 13ccl. 12:2; lsa. 13:10; 34:4; Ezek. 32:8; Dan. 8:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15); the great wind, of course, was brought by the Four Horsemen, who in Zechariah’s original imagery were the Four Winds (Zech. 6:5), and who will be reintroduced to St. John in that form in 7:1; and the fig tree is Israel herself (Matt. 21:19; 24:32-34; Luke 21:29-32).

Fifth, Israel now simply disappears: The heaven vanished like a scroll when it is rolled up21 (Isa. 34:4; 51:6; Ps. 102:25- 26; on the symbolism of Israel as “heaven,” see Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 4:23-31; cf. Heb 12:26-27).
Sixth, the Gentile powers are shaken as well: Every mountain and island were moved out of their places (Job 9:5-6; 14:18-19; 28:9-11; Isa. 41:5, 15-16; Ezek. 38:20; Nab. 1:4-8; Zeph. 2:11).22 God’s “old creation,” Israel, is thus to be de-created, as the Kingdom is transferred to the Church, the New Creation (cf. 2 Pet. 3:7-14). Because the rulers in God’s Vineyard have killed His Son, they too will be killed (Matt. 21:33-45). The Vineyard itself will be broken down, destroyed, and laid waste (Isa. 5:1-7).

In God’s righteous destruction of Israel, He will shake even heaven and earth (Matt. 24:29-30; Heb. 12:26-28) in order to deliver His Kingdom over to His new nation, the Church.



15-17 Old Testament prophetic imagery is still in view as St. John here describes the apostates under judgment. This is the seventh phase of de-creation: the destruction of men. But this seventh item in the list opens up to reveal another “seven” within it (just as the
Seventh Seal and Seventh Trumpet each contains the
next set of seven judgments), for seven classes of men are named here, showing that the destruction is total,affecting small and great alike: the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich
and the strong and every slave and free man. None will be able to escape, regardless of either privileged status or insignificance. The whole Land has rejected Christ, and the whole Land is being excommunicated.
Again, the parallels show that the judgment upon Israel is intended by this prophecy (cf. Isa. 2 and 24-27),although other nations (“the kings of the earth”) will be affected as well.

 

[kyredneck]

THERE WAS NEVER A MORE APPROPRIATE TIME for the curses to come upon that nation then when they rejected Jesus.

Amen! Did you hold that thought?

Compare:

16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full. Gen 15

...with:

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

The iniquity of the Jews became full in that generation, foretold in the Song of Moses some 1400 years earlier, and they, the sons of the kingdom, were cast out and 'the land' given to the Church. There lies a type within the conquest of Canaan, the land of milk and honey, of this.

I've got to go to bed. I'm tired.

[add]

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not. Acts 7

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Some of you have gone beyond interpreting Scripture figuratively. You have made it nothing more than an allegory. I wasn't even this bad when I was an Amillennialist.

 

[Iconoclast]

Kyred....this portion might have cleared up a misconception I had where I might have offered some bad teaching on this portion... in times past...

G. Deuteronomy 31:19-22

Now therefore, write down this song for yourselves and teach it to the children of Israel; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel.

When I have brought them to the land flowing with milk and honey, of which I swore to their father, and they have eaten and filled themselves and grown fat, then they will turn to other gods and serve them; and they will provoke Me and break My covenant .

Then it shall be, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify against them as a witness; for it will not be forgotten in the mouths of their descendants, for I know the inclination of their behavior today, even before I have brought them to the land of which I swore to give them.

Therefore Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it to the children of Israel.

Revelation 15:2-4

2. And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass having harps of God.

3. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways O King of the saints!

Who shall not fear You O Lord, and glorify Your name? For you alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."

The song of Moses was to be sung as a witness against the children of Israel when God’s judgment came upon them for breaking the covenant. This song of Moses is sung in Revelation just prior to God’s wrath being poured out on the land in Revelation chapter 16 (Rev. 16:1). As God had said in Deuteronomy it testifies against the dwellers on the land as a witness as God’s judgments come on them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Some of you have gone beyond interpreting Scripture figuratively. You have made it nothing more than an allegory. I wasn't even this bad when I was an Amillennialist.

Hang in there PB....we are just working through some ideas...This is somewhat "beyond" indeed in that almost no one has the patience to test the waters on this...
I have gone from premill dispy, to optimistic Amill, to reluctant postmill, to somewhat convinced postmill

PB.....what do you have on this quote from psalm 8...found in Hebrews2:5-8?

Who is it speaking about? When? What does it mean to you and me?

. You have made it nothing more than an allegory.

also....have you considered the two articles offered by Kyred? try and outline them, then critique them if you can...post it....

 

[Iconoclast]

To any premill, or historic premill...what do you have on this?
what do you have on this quote from psalm 8...found in Hebrews2:5-8?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I have a personal copy of The Parousia and Revelation: Four Views. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm very familiar with Preterist interpretation. I did find something interesting Duncan McKenzie wrote: Thus, neither Daniel nor Revelation shows a coming of God/Christ past the time of his AD 70 coming. The fall back position for partial preterists at this point is usually to cite the resurrection/rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as still being future. But, as aptly shown by Beale in his chart, 1 Thessalonians 4-5 parallels Matthew 24-25—and many partial preterists say Matthew 24-25 is referring to AD 70. I do believe there is a future end shown in Revelation; it is the end of the millennium. This will be the time when Satan (and all evil) will be finally done away with in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:7-10). I am thrilled that he also sees the inconsistency in interpreting Mt. 24-25 as an entirely different event from 1 Th. 4.15-5.10. Yet, he claims that he is a partial preterist. That's interesting...and I'm not being sarcastic. I'll have to read up more on him. As far Hebrews, it is the whole inhabited earth being spoken of, as the word οἰκουμένη signifies. The author (Paul?) also makes it evident that one day we will "see" all things put under him. What are your thoughts on that? Will we really "see" all things put under him or is it just another "every eye will see him" but not really because we're not supposed to interpret that literally? Just a question.