Spiritual Interpretation pt5.

[Iconoclast]

"PrmtvBptst1832

Thanks for your response..

The Son of Man

Here is the original quote from psalm 8;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

and by extension those who will reign with him

.
who will reign?...or who are reigning is the question I have for you and any other premill

Do we see that?

No....we see something else...something you miss

Are we going to see that?

No...we are going to see what we see until someone shows differently.


Hebrews2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour;


While Hebrews 2 is speaking much about the person and work of Jesus, the quote from psalm 8 is speaking clearly of redeemed man...right now, In Christ and pressing the claims of the gospel worldwide. Hebrews 2 is speaking of our role in the Kingdom growthand expansion....and we see not yet all things put under him...that does not happen until the end....
1cor15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Iconoclast]

y1 said;

The OT prophets foretold that when the King Messiah was to reign, that all nations would come up to Him to pay Him homage, thatthe law of God would be written upon all hearts , that all weapons would be destroyed and turned into ploughshares, none of that was meant to be literal? And daniel saw that when the rock came, all the Kingdoms of man would be crushed then?

I asked you....
Do you think this big rock is going to be literal?


God the Son has been granted the rule of all the world, and all nations will come under His messianic kingship
(see also Ps. 22:27-31; 46:4, 10; 65:2; 66:4; 68:31-32;
72; 86:9; 102:15-22; 138:4-5; 145:10-11).
Whatever opposition is offered against His Kingdom will be crushed absolutely. And the installation of Christ as universal King, prophesied in this passage, clearly took place at Christ’s First Coming, through His birth, life,
death, resurrection, and ascension to glory (this can be confirmed by simply looking up the numerous New Testament quotations of Psalms 2 and 110, both of which are about Christ’s kingship.


from Days of Vengeance;

The point of the quotation here is that the Christian overcomers, in this age, are promised a share in the messianic reign of Jesus Christ, in time and on earth. In spite of all opposition, God has set up His King over the
nations (cf. Ps. 2:1-6). Those who are obedient to His commands will rule the world, reconstructing it for His glory in terms of His laws. Psalm 2 shows God laughing and sneering at the pitiful attempts of the wicked to fight against and overthrow His Kingdom. He has already given His Son “all authority in heaven and earth,” and the King is with His Church until the end of the age (Matt. 28:18-20)! Is it possible that the King will be defeated? He has, in fact, warned all earthly rulers to submit to His government, or perish (Ps. 2:10-
12). And the same is true of His Church. The nation that will not serve us will perish (Isa. 60:12); all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet (Ps. 47:1-3) – promises made originally to Israel, but now to
be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church.


24. Psalms 2 and 110 are the two most quoted Psalms in the New Testament. For Psalm 2, see Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9:35; John 1:49; Acts 4:25-
26; 13:33; Phil. 2:12; Heb. 1:2,5; 5:5; Rev. 2:26-27; 11:18; 12:5; 19:15, 19. For Psalm 110, see Matt. 22:44; 26:64; Mark 12:36; 14:62; 16:19; Luke 20:42-43; 22:69;
John 12:34; Acts 2:34-35; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 15:25; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 13; 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:3, 17, 21; 8:1; 10:12-13; 12:2.

 

[Iconoclast]

The plain and literal meaning of the bible becomes whatever we want it to mean!

You keep posting as if you want to contribute....

Tell us your plain and literal meaning on these passages...or stop posting such ignorant tweets....
..."I will put in play" portions of Days of Vengeance...commenting on Chapter 6 for your consideration;
6:11-14
that Israel’s time has run out: The stars fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind (Job 9:7; 13ccl. 12:2; lsa. 13:10; 34:4; Ezek. 32:8; Dan. 8:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15); the great wind, of course, was brought by the Four Horsemen, who in Zechariah’s original imagery were the Four Winds (Zech. 6:5), and who will be reintroduced to St. John in that form in 7:1; and the fig tree is Israel herself (Matt. 21:19; 24:32-34; Luke 21:29-32).

Fifth, Israel now simply disappears:

The heaven vanished like a scroll when it is rolled up21 (Isa. 34:4; 51:6; Ps. 102:25- 26; on the symbolism of Israel as “heaven,” see Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 4:23-31; cf. Heb 12:26-27).

Sixth, the Gentile powers are shaken as well:

Every mountain and island were moved out of their places (Job 9:5-6; 14:18-19; 28:9-11; Isa. 41:5, 15-16; Ezek. 38:20; Nab. 1:4-8; Zeph. 2:11).22 God’s “old creation,” Israel, is thus to be de-created, as the Kingdom is transferred to the Church, the New Creation (cf. 2 Pet. 3:7-14). Because the rulers in God’s Vineyard have killed His Son, they too will be killed (Matt. 21:33-45). The Vineyard itself will be broken down, destroyed, and laid waste (Isa. 5:1-7).

In God’s righteous destruction of Israel, He will shake even heaven and earth (Matt. 24:29-30; Heb. 12:26-28) in order to deliver His Kingdom over to His new nation, the Church.

 

[Iconoclast]

J.Stuart Russell's refutation of Partial Preterism

It cannot, indeed, be denied that occasionally our Lord uttered ambiguous language. He said to the Jews: 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up' (John ii. 19); but the evangelist is careful to add: 'But he spate of the temple of his body.' So when Jesus spoke of 'rivers of living water flowing from the heart of the believer,' St. John adds an explanatory note: ' This spake he of the spirit,' etc. (John vii. 36). Again, when the Lord alluded to the manner of His own death, 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth,' etc., the evangelist adds: 'This he said, signifying what death he should die' (John ix. 33).

There is, in fact; no ambiguity whatever as to the coming referred to in the passage now under consideration. It is not one of several possible comings; but the one, sole, supreme event, so frequently predicted by our Lord, so constantly expected by His disciples. It is His coming in glory; His coming to judgment; His coming in His kingdom; the coming of the kingdom of God. It is not a process, but an act. It is not the same thing as 'the destruction of Jerusalem,'- that is another event related and contemporaneous; but the two are not to be confounded. The New Testament knows of only one Parousia, one coming in glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is altogether an abuse of language to speak of several senses in which Christ may be said to come, -- as at His own resurrection; at the day of Pentecost; at the destruction of Jerusalem; at the death of a believer; and at various providential epochs. This is not the usage of the New Testament, nor is it accurate language in any point of view. This passage alone contains so much important truth respecting the Parousia, that it may be said to cover the whole ground; and, rightly used, will be found to be a key to the true interpretation of the New Testament doctrine on this subject.

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

"PrmtvBptst1832

Thanks for your response..


Here is the original quote from psalm 8;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

.
who will reign?...or who are reigning is the question I have for you and any other premill


No....we see something else...something you miss


No...we are going to see what we see until someone shows differently.


Hebrews2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour;


While Hebrews 2 is speaking much about the person and work of Jesus, the quote from psalm 8 is speaking clearly of redeemed man...right now, In Christ and pressing the claims of the gospel worldwide.

You and I are not reigning with Christ per Rev. 20. Even if I were an Amillennialist or Preterist, the most I could get out of Rev. 20 would be to place the reign of the saints with Christ in heaven and not on earth for a long indeterminate period of time. That still wouldn't include us since those John saw were obviously dead and then took part in the first resurrection. Moses Stuart was a Postmillennialist if I remember correctly. It's been a while since I read his Commentary on the Apocalypse. Even he said this resurrection must be literal to be true to the text. He just has people resurrected before the Millennium and reigning with Christ from heaven. I don't see any other way around the first resurrection. These lived, but the rest of the dead lived not again...The two are obviously referring to the same kind of living. They're either both literal or both spiritual.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

You're missing his point.

 

[Iconoclast]

You're missing his point.

There is a literal second coming, there is a coming in judgment, there is a final judgment, There is a coming to the Apostles as recorded.

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This coming was a coming in judgment....those who pierced Him saw it.



We are Kings and priests.....In Christ, right now

 

[Iconoclast]

….and the Great Harlot in chapters 17-18….

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Dt 31


1 And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls, and spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; Rev 17

The Song of Moses is alluded to in other places in the NT, not just Revelation.

Compare:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children….. Dt 32

…with:

41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell? Mt 23

9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3

Compare:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. Dt 32

…with:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

Reference Josephus:

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2

Compare:

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

…with:

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. Ro 10

I have seen many commentators describe revelation very simply as the story of the two women...The BRIDE....and the Harlot.

You have done a good job listing verses dealing with the Spirit...catching up....the harlot, the evil generation, I notice that other than PB...no one offers on any of the texts.
they talk about and around them, but they either cannot see it , or their theology does not let them look there.
Do you realize how any such portions of the OT in particular they render useless as they do not compare scripture with scripture.
Excuses of all kinds are offered, but not one of them attempts to explain the texts, except to explain them away

 

[percho]

Hang in there PB....we are just working through some ideas...This is somewhat "beyond" indeed in that almost no one has the patience to test the waters on this...
I have gone from premill dispy, to optimistic Amill, to reluctant postmill, to somewhat convinced postmill

PB.....what do you have on this quote from psalm 8...found in Hebrews2:5-8?

Who is it speaking about? When? What does it mean to you and me?



also....have you considered the two articles offered by Kyred? try and outline them, then critique them if you can...post it....

If I may.

I believe it refers to the world of man, who was made a little lower than the angels, inheriting the kingdom of God as men born from the dead, judging the angels> That in essence, what man, adam, was created for but it would come not through the first man adam but through the last adam, the Son of Man the Son of the living God, the firstborn from the dead. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Thus, We see Jesus, made a little lower than the angels.

The great salvation first begun to be spoken of by the Lord was the gospel of the kingdom of God to be entered through birth not of the flesh but of the Spirit. The following verse has to be currently spoken of, of Jesus for currently Jesus, the last adam is the only one to have experienced it. 1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. That is referring to Jesus, made a little lower than the angels, the last adam V 45. Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee. Refers to the resurrection. That is when the one who said that glorified Jesus as high priest after the order of Mel. Heb 5:5,6 & 1 Peter 1:21 gave him glory.

The water baptism of Jesus pictured that prophetic word of God thus ends with the voice from heaven. It pictured his true baptism. Luke 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with. Matt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him,

What does it mean to us, you ask?

Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

There is a literal second coming, there is a coming in judgment, there is a final judgment, There is a coming to the Apostles as recorded.

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This coming was a coming in judgment....those who pierced Him saw it.



We are Kings and priests.....In Christ, right now

Absolutely,

you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. -1 Pe. 2.5

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; -1 Pe. 2.9

However, depending on your translation, Rev. 1.6 could be ...He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father. You may not be a king after all, but a subject of the kingdom that only has one king, namely, Jesus Christ. Likewise, Israel of old was a kingdom of priests. They weren't all kings. At any rate, If Revelation 1:7 is in the past, there are martyred saints who were raised in A.D. 70 and are reigning with Christ now.

 

[Iconoclast]

Absolutely,

you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. -1 Pe. 2.5

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; -1 Pe. 2.9

However, depending on your translation, Rev. 1.6 could be ...He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father. You may not be a king after all, but a subject of the kingdom that only has one king, namely, Jesus Christ. Likewise, Israel of old was a kingdom of priests. They weren't all kings. At any rate, If Revelation 1:7 is in the past, there are martyred saints who were raised in A.D. 70 and are reigning with Christ now.

How do you function as a believer priest? the priesthood of the believer is a Baptist distinctive? You do not struggle with that, but the idea of reigning is the same...We are In Union with Christ....we have life NOW...as Kingdom members we are used to spread the word of the King, under His authority.
Hebrews 2....has given us a restored dominon mandate.
The first Adam failed....The First Israel failed.....Jesus is the last Adam.....Jesus is the True Israel....and US IN HIM. We do not fail.....The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church.

 

[Iconoclast]

A.D. 70? No!

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. –Mt. 10.15

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. –Mt. 11.22

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. –Mt. 12.36

The men of Nineveh shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. –Mt. 12.41, 42

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; -Ro. 2.5 (cf. Rev. 6.17)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Pe. 2.9

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. -2Pe. 3.7

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. -1 Jn. 4.17

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. –Jude 1.6

Those who perished in the judgment of 70ad, will be raised to be finally judged at the Great White throne judgment.

 

[Iconoclast]

percho

Are we still wandering in the wilderness or have we entered the promised land?

Positionally we are citizens of heaven now, but we are still strangers and pilgrims here on the earth.

The vineyard disappeared and began to be scattered, during Isaiah's lifetime and the pleasant plant of good and bad figs were left. The good figs which would be planted in Christ and the bad to be scattered.

We still are to work to bring in the harvest.

Is5Mt21 ? What is the nation singular that the kingdom of God will be given to?

Christian Israel

Do we see it in Ezek 37? Do we see it in Hosea 1:10,11 Where it is said of the very same people to whom it was said, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

gentiles

Romans 11:1,2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew

.
blindness in part is happened to Israel

Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

How did God punish the ones he foreknew, the only known of all the families of the earth?

the curses of Deut / Leviticus have come upon them, see the articles offered by Kyred.

Does God gather them all at once or is he gathering the some as firstfruits and will gather the balance at his coming?

God is gathering the scattered children from all over the world.

You said something about Christ as the Passover above.

1 cor5:7

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Was the Spirit poured out upon all flesh that day? How long do the last days, last? Does all mean, all?

The Spirit was poured out, not on the jew only, but all flesh.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silencing the Critics
For over two decades, critics chided the Christian Reconstructionists with this refrain: “You people just haven’t produced any Biblical exegesis to prove yourcase for eschatological optimism.”

Then came Paradise\ Restored in 1985. A deathly silence engulfed the formerly vociferous critics. Now comes The Days of Vengeance. The silence will now become deafening.
Few critics will reply in print, I suspect, though if they refuse to reply, they have thereby accepted the validity of the coroner’s report: death by strangulation (footnotes caught in the throat).
Oh, there may be a few hastily written book reviews in un-read Christian scholarly journals. Dallas Seminary’s Prof. Lightner may write one, like the one-page bit of fluff he wrote on Paradise Restored, in which he said, ineffect, “See here, this man is a postmillennialist, and you need to understand that we here at Dallas Seminary aren’t!”

There may be a few brief disparaging remarks in popular paperback books about the insignificant and temporary revival of full-scale dominion theology. But there will be no successful attempt by scholarly leaders of the various pessimillennial camps to respond to Chilton. There is a reason for this: They cannot effectively respond.



As we say in Tyler, they just don’t have the horses. If I am incorrect about their theological inability, then we will see lengthy, detailed articles showing why Chilton’sbook is utterly wrong. If we don’t see them, you can safely conclude that our opponents are in deep trouble.

To cover their naked flanks, they will be tempted to offer the familiar refrain: “We will not dignify such preposterous arguments with a public response.” That is to say, they will run up the intellectual white flag.


Chilton’s critics will have a problem with this silent approach, however. The problem is Professor Gordon Wenham, who wrote the Foreword. There is probably no more respected Bible-beIieving Old Testament commentator in the English-speaking world. His commentary on Leviticus sets a high intellectual standard. If Gordon Wenham says that The Days of Vengeance is worth considering, then to fail to considerit would be a major tactical error on the part of the pessimillennialists.


I will go farther than Wenham does. This book is a landmark effort, the finest commentary on Revelation in the history of the Church. It has set the standard for:
(1) its level of scholarship,
(2) its innovative insightsper page, and
(3) its readability.
This unique combination – almost unheard of in academic circles – leaves the intellectual opposition nearly defenseless.
There may be a few academic specialists who will respond competently to this or that point in The Days of Vengeance, but their technical essays will not be read widely, especially by the average pastor or layman.
There may also be one or two theologians who attempt to respond comprehensively (though I doubt it), but their muddled expositions will win few new followers.
(

 

[Iconoclast]

INTRODUCTION
Christ’s death at the hands of the apostate children of
Israel sealed their fate: The Kingdom would be taken
from them (Matt. 21:33-43). While wrath built up “to
the utmost” (1 Thess. 2:16), God stayed His hand of
judgment until the writing of the New Covenant
document was accomplished. With that done, He
dramatically terminated the kingdom of Israel, wiping
out the persecuting generation (Matt. 23:34-36; 24:34;
Luke 11:49-51). Jerusalem’s destruction was the last
blast of the trumpet, signaling that the “mystery of
God” was finished (Rev. 10:7).

 

[kyredneck]

Even if I were an Amillennialist or Preterist, the most I could get out of Rev. 20 would be to place the reign of the saints with Christ in heaven…...

……you're getting WARMER!

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Eph 1

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: Eph 2

5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1

 

[John of Japan]

There may be a few brief disparaging remarks in popular paperback books about the insignificant and temporary revival of full-scale dominion theology. But there will be no successful attempt by scholarly leaders of the various pessimillennial camps to respond to Chilton. There is a reason for this: They cannot effectively respond.

...

I will go farther than Wenham does. This book is a landmark effort, the finest commentary on Revelation in the history of the Church. It has set the standard for:
(1) its level of scholarship,
(2) its innovative insightsper page, and
(3) its readability.
This unique combination – almost unheard of in academic circles – leaves the intellectual opposition nearly defenseless.
There may be a few academic specialists who will respond competently to this or that point in The Days of Vengeance, but their technical essays will not be read widely, especially by the average pastor or layman.
There may also be one or two theologians who attempt to respond comprehensively (though I doubt it), but their muddled expositions will win few new followers.
(

Chilton is not a scholar, and that is why scholars will not answer him any more than they will answer Peter Ruckman. And by the way, Ruckman (now dead) had more scholarly credentials than Chilton, with a legit Ph.D., something Chilton did not have.

I found the PDFs of Chilton's work, and looked over the commentary on Rev. It is not scholarly, though he did a great amount of research, I'll hand him that. However, the book is badly in need of an editor. (I have worked at a publishing co. editing books, so I know the field.

Where are Chilton's articles in the scholarly journals, the peer reviewed ones? As academics say, "Publish or perish." My son the Ph.D. who teaches with me has had numerous articles published in the scholarly journals, essays in two festschrifts, one academic book published and another coming out this year. He's a genuine scholar. Chilton was not. Genuine scholar like my son see no need to answer someone with bogus degrees like Chilton.

 

[Yeshua1]

You keep posting as if you want to contribute....

Tell us your plain and literal meaning on these passages...or stop posting such ignorant tweets....
..."I will put in play" portions of Days of Vengeance...commenting on Chapter 6 for your consideration;
6:11-14
that Israel’s time has run out: The stars fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind (Job 9:7; 13ccl. 12:2; lsa. 13:10; 34:4; Ezek. 32:8; Dan. 8:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15); the great wind, of course, was brought by the Four Horsemen, who in Zechariah’s original imagery were the Four Winds (Zech. 6:5), and who will be reintroduced to St. John in that form in 7:1; and the fig tree is Israel herself (Matt. 21:19; 24:32-34; Luke 21:29-32).

Fifth, Israel now simply disappears:

The heaven vanished like a scroll when it is rolled up21 (Isa. 34:4; 51:6; Ps. 102:25- 26; on the symbolism of Israel as “heaven,” see Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 4:23-31; cf. Heb 12:26-27).

Sixth, the Gentile powers are shaken as well:

Every mountain and island were moved out of their places (Job 9:5-6; 14:18-19; 28:9-11; Isa. 41:5, 15-16; Ezek. 38:20; Nab. 1:4-8; Zeph. 2:11).22 God’s “old creation,” Israel, is thus to be de-created, as the Kingdom is transferred to the Church, the New Creation (cf. 2 Pet. 3:7-14). Because the rulers in God’s Vineyard have killed His Son, they too will be killed (Matt. 21:33-45). The Vineyard itself will be broken down, destroyed, and laid waste (Isa. 5:1-7).

In God’s righteous destruction of Israel, He will shake even heaven and earth (Matt. 24:29-30; Heb. 12:26-28) in order to deliver His Kingdom over to His new nation, the Church.

The symbols and the descriptions refer many times to an actual event, as to the one viewing it, it looked like heavens opeening likea scrool for example!

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter said: ↑
You may be fluent in your language ability, but that does not mean you have a clear understanding of Scripture.

Wow, you can tell all of this from a few posts on an Internet forum!!!
Fortunately, the Bible college administration where I teach completely disagrees with your opinion.

Your claims to language ability were confirmed by admin when I reported your posts. I can't challenge your Greek, Hebrew & Japanese - only your English, & the tone of what they wrote in your support & what you write on the forum.

Dear Ian, The Admin team has reviewed your reports of John of Japan. We don't know for sure but we think the UK doesn't have a Baptist college with the academic gravitas of Baptist College of Ministry. That's not to put the school at the same level as an Oxford or Cambridge college. But it isn't a Sunday School on steroids either. In debating with John, you are debating with a subject expert. In the team's opinion, he's not being arrogant when he speaks on a topic he is an expert in. Or as one moderator put it:

It's like a child who has made a peanut butter and jelly telling one of the Two Fat Ladies what a roux is and how it is made.

I hope this helps to explain matters.

To get into details:

Spiritualising is seeing Christ, his real spiritual kingdom & his redeemed people in OT prophecy, rather than a carnal focus on the nation of Israel & an earthly kingdom. 1 Cor. 2, 2 Cor. 3

"Carnal" & "flesh" - Strong 4559-4561 - are of course closely related words, often being used in a negative sense but only correctly understood by the context.

None of this answers my criticism of your statement, but in fact bolsters what I asked. So I'll ask again, rephrasing it. Why do you consider a reign of Christ on earth to be "carnal," since as you yourself point out the usage of the word in the Bible is almost all negative?

Why have you referred to my "often being used in a negative sense but only correctly understood by the context" as "almost all negative?"
Misquoting what I say does not prove your point.

Even if you disagree with the (clearly Biblical) doctrine of a physical reign of Christ on earth, there is absolutely nothing negative about the doctrine. In fact, the idea that Christ could have a perfect reign on earth, with no crime, war, or sickness, is a wonderfully positive doctrine, and it glorifies God in a big way.
Neither did Peter, so I'm in good company (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Again you misquote to make your point.

Spiritualising is seeing Christ, his real spiritual kingdom & his redeemed people in OT prophecy, rather than a carnal focus on the nation of Israel & an earthly kingdom. 1 Cor. 2, 2 Cor. 3

I look forward to Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment, & his "perfect reign on earth, with no crime, war, or sickness," in the new heaven & new earth.

In a previous post you showed your comprehension limitations:

Jews were & are saved by repentance & baptism in the name of Jesus.

In reply you rejected my allusion to Acts 2:38

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Absolutely wrong. No one was ever saved by repentance and any kind of ceremony, including baptism. It's salvation and faith in all ages and dispensations.

Seems you are just trying to prove your superiority & you had to admit:

Um, no, you didn't quote that verse or even give the reference.

I meant to say "repentance and faith," not "salvation and faith."

I just totally oppose the idea that baptism or any other work or ceremony is necessary for salvation in any age. Almost all Baptists are with me on that.

I'm surprised you blame me for you not recognising a paraphrase of Peter's Pentecost sermon.

Everyone who truly repents & is baptised in the name of Jesus is saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You can't make "repentance" a ritual. But "faith" must have an object. Plenty of people have faith in all sorts of things - gods, dreams, images, Trump, etc, but only a living faith in the Lord Jesus saves. And faith is expressed by works of faith, normally beginning with baptism.

Do you consider John the baptist was "absolutely wrong" :

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

You can learn more of my understanding of baptism in this hymn I wrote & posted on the forum:

Repent and be baptised
and trust the name of Jesus.
The Gospel call comes clear,
He loves & saves and frees us.
Believe with all your heart
He is the Son of God;
your sins are washed away,
cleansed by his precious blood.​

3 more verses

But hey, you're an amazingly perceptive person, since you know so much about me and my knowledge of Scripture after our very limited contacts here on the BB.

I think I know enough about you to respond the way I have.

 

[Covenanter]

Note to Mods -

I do not like being personal in replies on the forum, but John is too anxious to display his claimed superior understanding.

I much prefer to keep replies Scriptural.