God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!

[AndyAnsell]

LOL

You realize that your premise is built upon a handful of verses ripped out of context. Or do you conveniently forget that?

Shall we deal with each of your verses within the context of the entire book and the entire Bible or are you dead set on cherry picking verses to prop up your false theology?

Let me know when you want to address God's Sovereignty. At the present moment I see you playing God and relegating the Creator to being your puppet.

Here is a very good definition of God's Sovereignty, as given by king Neb:

"For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Daniel 4:34-35)

 

[MennoSota]

Here is a very good definition of God's Sovereignty, as given by king Neb:

"For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Daniel 4:34-35)

Yet, you want God to be subservient to your will. You make God in your own image.

Nebuchadnezzar had a better grasp of God's sovereignty than you do.

 

[MennoSota]

2 Peter 3...what is the context?

2 Peter 3:2-18
[2]I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.
[3]Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
[4]They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
[5]They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
[6]Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
[7]And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
[8]But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
[9]The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
[11]Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live,
[12]looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames.
[13]But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.
[14]And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.
[15]And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
[16]speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
[17]You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.
[18]Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.

 

[AndyAnsell]

2 Peter 3...what is the context?

2 Peter 3:2-18
[2]I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.
[3]Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
[4]They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
[5]They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
[6]Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
[7]And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
[8]But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
[9]The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
[11]Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live,
[12]looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames.
[13]But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.
[14]And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.
[15]And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
[16]speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
[17]You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.
[18]Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.

Your point being? WHY would verse NINE say what it does, if it is addressed only to the ELECT? Simple question.

 

[TCassidy]

limited atonement [is] unbiblical

How do you figure that? If Christ has atoned for a person's sins that person is now sinless (positionly). How can a person whose sins have been atoned for ever go to hell? In order for such a person to go to hell he would have to drag Christ and His atonement with him into hell fire.

 

[TCassidy]

WHY would God be "willing" that NONE perish, IF they cannot respond to the Gospel because He did not "elect" them?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Gill.

 

[AndyAnsell]

How do you figure that? If Christ has atoned for a person's sins that person is now sinless (positionly). How can a person whose sins have been atoned for ever go to hell? In order for such a person to go to hell he would have to drag Christ and His atonement with him into hell fire.

No where in the entire Bible do we read that Jesus died only for "some". In fact, not till Augustine did the teaching that Jesus died for the "elect" enter the Church. All or the greater majority of the early Church fathers believed in a universal atonement, though not salvation. If are quite wrong to assume that the Redemption of Jesus Christ is "applied" to any sinner, without their repenting and accepting His Atoning Sacrifice first. Remission of ones sins can only be achieved by repentance, and not because Jesus may have died for the entire world. It is only when a sinner actually appropriates the death/blood of Jesus Christ in forgiveness, that it is "actual". the death of Jesus Christ is "potential" and not "actual", which can only be after a sinner comes to Jesus for salvation

 

[AndyAnsell]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Gill.

Please check the textual evidence for the reading "us", and you will very clearly see that the best evidence is for "YOU"

 

[TCassidy]

accepting His Atoning Sacrifice first

How can a person accept something that is not offered to him?

The atonement is offered to the offended party on behalf of the offender. The atonement was offered to God by Jesus on our behalf.

Unless you are claiming you can accept or reject the atonement when it is offered to you because you are the offended party. If so, who offended you? God? Because He is holy and we are not?

I don't really think we are the offended ones and God is the offender. I think it is the other way around. We are the offenders and God is the offended One.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, you mean that when unsaved sinners commit any acts of sin, like rape, murder, theft, etc, they don't any any choice in doing this? Are these same sinners doomed to eternal damnation because God has sent them directly to hell in predestination? Why would Jesus Himself tell sinners, that "unless they repent, they will perish"? (Luke 13:1-5), words that cannot have been spoken to any of the "elect", as they cannot perish, unless you charge Jesus of making empty threats? When you say "enslaved" to sin, you could also include many "believers" who live worse lives than the unsaved! Look at the "saints" in the Church at Corinth, where they committed heinous sins AFTER they were saved. If, as you say there is no free will, then God made man as per-programmed machines, who cannot be responsible for their sinful actions, or their rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, as they have no say in this. Can you see the nonsense and danger there is in this thinking?

No, its that after the fall, we can no longer freely decide to accept Jesus, as our sin natures will always be in the rejection mode towards Him! We are free to decide , but that answer will always be no!

 

[AndyAnsell]

How can a person accept something that is not offered to him?

The atonement is offered to the offended party on behalf of the offender. The atonement was offered to God by Jesus on our behalf.

Unless you are claiming you can accept or reject the atonement when it is offered to you because you are the offended party. If so, who offended you? God? Because He is holy and we are not?

I don't really think we are the offended ones and God is the offender. I think it is the other way around. We are the offenders and God is the offended One.

"Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25). "set forth", is from the Greek "προτίθημι", which means, "to place before", or "This meaning of “set forth publicly” is preferred for προέθετο by SH ad Rom_3:25 (cf. Deissmann BS p. 129 ff.); but Moulton on the strength of an inscr. suggests that the meaning may rather be “offered,” or “provided” for a propitiatory gift. The inscr. is Syll 325 (= .3 708).15 (before B.C. 100) τισὶν δὲ τῶν πολειτῶν ε[ἰς] λύτρα προτιθεὶς (sc. χρήματα) ἔδειξεν ἑαυτὸν πρὸς πᾶσαν ἀπάντησιν τῶν σωζομένων εὐομείλητον, which Moulton renders, “offering money for the ransom of other citizens, he showed himself gracious at every welcoming of those who from time to time safely returned.” See further Exp VIII. i. p. 475 f." (Moulton/Milligan, Vocab. of the Greek NT)

 

[TCassidy]

Please check the textual evidence for the reading "us", and you will very clearly see that the best evidence is for "YOU"

2 Peter 3:9 ου βραδυνει ο κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις ημας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι.

There is a textual variant in the Critical Text reading υμας in place of the correct ημας. The first person pronoun is better in keeping with the context, not to mention that it is attested to by the much better Byzantine textform as opposed to the very flawed Critical text.

 

[TCassidy]

"Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25). "set forth", is from the Greek "προτίθημι", which means, "to place before", or "This meaning of “set forth publicly” is preferred for προέθετο by SH ad Rom_3:25 (cf. Deissmann BS p. 129 ff.); but Moulton on the strength of an inscr. suggests that the meaning may rather be “offered,” or “provided” for a propitiatory gift. The inscr. is Syll 325 (= .3 708).15 (before B.C. 100) τισὶν δὲ τῶν πολειτῶν ε[ἰς] λύτρα προτιθεὶς (sc. χρήματα) ἔδειξεν ἑαυτὸν πρὸς πᾶσαν ἀπάντησιν τῶν σωζομένων εὐομείλητον, which Moulton renders, “offering money for the ransom of other citizens, he showed himself gracious at every welcoming of those who from time to time safely returned.” See further Exp VIII. i. p. 475 f." (Moulton/Milligan, Vocab. of the Greek NT)

I can't help but notice you didn't answer my question. Does Christ offer His atonement to us or to God to atone for our sins?

Whose anger needed propitiation? Our anger or God's anger?

 

[AndyAnsell]

No, its that after the fall, we can no longer freely decide to accept Jesus, as our sin natures will always be in the rejection mode towards Him! We are free to decide , but that answer will always be no!

If, as you say, there is no free will for any sinner to either choose or reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, then why do we read Jesus say:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Matthew 23:37)

Before anyone tries to change this to "they could not will", note that the Greek here does NOT say this, nor would this reasoning make any sense of the passage. Clearly Jesus is here saying that He, before through the Prophets, and now Himself, "wants" to save the lost, but they are not interested. Clearly shows that they had FREE WILL to reject!

 

[AndyAnsell]

2 Peter 3:9 ου βραδυνει ο κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις ημας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι.

There is a textual variant in the Critical Text reading υμας in place of the correct ημας. The first person pronoun is better in keeping with the context, not to mention that it is attested to by the much better Byzantine textform as opposed to the very flawed Critical text.

The textual evidence for YOU is by far the better, as you well know!

 

[Yeshua1]

The textual evidence for YOU is by far the better, as you well know!

Yes, but does not fit his theology?

 

[Yeshua1]

If, as you say, there is no free will for any sinner to either choose or reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, then why do we read Jesus say:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Matthew 23:37)

Before anyone tries to change this to "they could not will", note that the Greek here does NOT say this, nor would this reasoning make any sense of the passage. Clearly Jesus is here saying that He, before through the Prophets, and now Himself, "wants" to save the lost, but they are not interested. Clearly shows that they had FREE WILL to reject!

yes, sinners will always freely reject Jesus, as the Gospel of grace goes against their ideas of works to get saved!

 

[AndyAnsell]

I can't help but notice you didn't answer my question. Does Christ offer His atonement to us or to God to atone for our sins?

Whose anger needed propitiation? Our anger or God's anger?

Both, is the simple answer. It is the Godhead that has been offended by the fall of man, and rightly so "propitiation" had to be made for this. Jesus' death on the cross was to do just this. He actually appeased Himself, as He is Almighty God. No doubt the Father and Holy Spirit were also equally part of the Redemption of mankind. Then we have the finished work of the Lord Jesus, which was "offered" as Romans 3:25 says, to all those who would accept.

 

[AndyAnsell]

Yes, but does not fit his theology?

You speak the truth! I notice this with the "reformed"

 

[AndyAnsell]

yes, sinners will always freely reject Jesus, as the Gospel of grace goes against their ideas of works to get saved!

I don't know where you get this from? There are many millions of sinners who have been saved for 2000 years, including the thief of the cross, who at first mocked and railed at Jesus, but then was convicted by the Holy Spirit, and repented and asked for forgiveness! There are many whom I have spoken to about the Lord, who are not rejectors of Him or the Gospel, but have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel presented in Biblical terms. God is very Faithful, and is saving many thousands each day, because of His GREAT LOVE for the lost sinners!