Actually it is you who is hanging onto the CT. I consider the Byzantine Textform (BT) to be superior.
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God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!
- Thread starter AndyAnsell
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Whoosh!!! That's context flying past you. Whoosh!!!
Who is Peter's target audience in 2 Peter? Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.[2 Peter 1:1-2]
His divine power has given us everything...[vs 3]
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises....[vs 4]
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories...[vs 16]
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture...[vs 20]
......just as there will be false teachers among you.[2 Peter 2:1]
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories....[vs 3]
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you....[2 Peter 3:1]
I want you to recall the words spoken....[vs 2]
Above all, you must understand that in the last days.....[vs 3]
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:...[vs 8]
...Instead he is patient with you...[vs 9]
Those God is patient with here are the believers. As you can see, the whole book of 2 Peter is addressed to believers. He is not willing that they, the elect of God, should perish.
Now, who are these 'some men' who will some ppl to be lost? Show us who they are. I have a feeling you flat out LIED here with that outlandish claim.
You make my point for me! WHY would this even be written in the Bible, that "God is not willing that any of the elect" should be lost, when they CANNOT??? As I have said, this verse as you understand it is MOOT! God CANNOT will or desire that the elect be anything other but saved! So why the need to be PATIENT with them? They are predetermined to their salvation, so the Calvinists says, so verse 9 here is POINTLESS, UNLESS it addresses the LOST!
Simply those who REJECT Jesus Christ! Nothing outlandish about Bible Truth!
Actually it is you who is hanging onto the CT. I consider the Byzantine Textform (BT) to be superior.
I stand corrected, I meant the BT.
I already gave the Bible versions, all you claim to be wrong because they do not agree with you!
I asked a question about how you OP title was worded...
God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do! Now, are you saying that some Calvinists want ppl to be lost, or that those who died lost will themselves lost? I ask for some clarity. Thanks.
Look the elect of God were not born saved. They were All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[/Ephesians 2:3] They had to hear the gospel of the Christ in order to be saved. Remember, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Romans 10:17]
That is why Jesus had to come and die for them. They were given to the Son via the Father to redeem from the others, who were just as depraved as they were. We were in the same boat, when we were sinners, as those who were not elected from before the creation of the world.
Those who reject Jesus are condemned already.[John 3:18]
If a person is "elect before the foundation of the world", as Calvinism teaches, then this must mean that they WILL get saved, regardless of anything. Right? the fact that they are the "elect", and have been "predestined" according to Calvinism to "eternal life", and this takes place in "eternity past", as God is out of time, means their salvation is GUARANTEED? Right? In which case, WHY would Peter say that God is LONGSUFFERING towards the ELECT, and does not DESIRE they would be LOST, as they CANNOT! This verse is NONSENSE if understood with Calvinistic minds!
Yes, so the fact that they can "reject" must require FREE WILL, as the opposite is to "accept"
Because CALVINISTS have this notion, that God does not want ALL sinners come to Jesus for salvation, and somehow only the ELITE as in Calvinists, are special before the Lord and He died for them. Even though they can never say why? WHY are the the ELITE?
There is no 'if' about this, unless you reject Ephesians 1:4...
Nope, the bible teaches that, we just follow what the bible ACTUALLY teaches.
Bingo! And you take umbrage to this? Srsly?
Wrong. God saw us all dead in Adam. None were more dead than others, but all on equal ground. None deserving anything from Him but eternal punishment. However, in God's electing love, He chose a MULTITUDE of hell-deserving ppl, who had nothing meritorious within themselves, and gave them to His Son to redeem from those others He justly left in their sins.
Exactly!! Why are you taking umbrage with God saving undeserving ppl from their sins??
Right!!
You are not picking up what the bible has laid down. Everybody who has ever lived was born dead in transgressions and sins, dead in Adam. EVERYBODY, including you and I. God sent His Son as the elect's Redeemer. Now that redemption via the cross has been made, God's wrath being appeased, He is now drawing those who the Son died for to Himself.
It is nonsense to those who oppose the sovereignity of God. We rest in God's electing love.
Ha! We don't desire any to be lost, but we are not forcing God to save those who He never intended to save to begin with.
Give us some names of ppl on here who have said they want ppl to die lost. Give us a quote from a Calvinist theologian that said they wanted ppl to die lost. Give us an actual name(s) and quote(s). If you can't, and I am most certain you can't, then you need to repent and apologize to us for lying about us.
I don't think that even Calvinists actually fully understand their own theology! The doctrine of election means that a person has been, from eternity past, chosen by God to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. As this is a pre-determined act of God, it WILL happen. This means that ALL of those who are "elect" in Calvinistic "theology", are SAVED from their "mothers wombs"! As NO "elect" person can or will ever be LOST, as God will make sure that they ALL make it to heaven. They WILL repent of their sins, and WILL be born-again, and WILL go to heaven, as this is something that is GUARANTEED for them. This is the ONLY way to correctly understand this "election" as taught by Calvinism. Anything less than this, cannot be right!
Now, with this in mind, please tell me WHY there is a need for God to be LONGSUFFERING with them? Or, "not be willing that any are LOST"? since the latter is IMPOSSIBLE for the "elect", who are already saved in a sense, as they have been "predestined to eternal life"? The ONLY correct interpretation to 2 Peter 3:9 in context, is that Peter is speaking to the UNSAVED, DAMNED, LOST.
"never intended to save"? Then just WHY does "God so love the world (human race), that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, shall not perish"? Why, as I have shown above from Ezekiel, does God "will the wicked to turn and live"? Why does Paul say that "God will that ALL should be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4), where the context, verses 1-4 clearly shows that he means ALL of mankind? Why does Jesus say in Revelation 22, "whosoever (that is, EVERYONE) will (that is, WILLING) let him take of the water of life freely"? Calvinism is a CONTRADICTION to the Word of Almighty God!
Brother Andy,
I know 2 Peter 3:9 says what it says it says. But down through the annals of time, a multitude of ppl have died and perished. So, that shows me that if God is not willing that any of all creation does not perish, yet a multitude has already, then I know there is more to that verse that what meets the eye.
Let's look at Leviticus 16:21-22....
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
Ppl want to use this little passage for universal redemption, but there's one problem. This was to be done solely for Israel. The Midianites, Assyrians, Philestines, Jebusites, Edomites, Babylonians, et al were not included in this. I can rind no record of God giving the institution of a blood sacrifice to any of these ppl. And as Hebrews 9:22 so poignantly states it...In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
I know 2 Peter 3:9 says what it says it says. But down through the annals of time, a multitude of ppl have died and perished. So, that shows me that if God is not willing that any of all creation does not perish, yet a multitude has already, then I know there is more to that verse that what meets the eye.
Let's look at Leviticus 16:21-22....
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
Ppl want to use this little passage for universal redemption, but there's one problem. This was to be done solely for Israel. The Midianites, Assyrians, Philestines, Jebusites, Edomites, Babylonians, et al were not included in this. I can rind no record of God giving the institution of a blood sacrifice to any of these ppl. And as Hebrews 9:22 so poignantly states it...In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
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For the longest time I thought that God was sovereign. (Yet I didn't, because I was of the belief that it was my choice alone to come to God.) I now realise that this basically makes God into someone who will bend to my will. If I can make God bend to my will does that then mean that I can thwart Gods plan? Do I make decisions and the God reacts to my will to implement his plan? This is a really dangerous line.....
It's all a matter of perspective. We all have the ability to choose freely ( from our perspective ). From Gods perspective he knows all that was, is and will be. He determines every single thing that happens in this world. He is sovereign even in life and death (job 1:21). Yet we still have a choice and a will, God knowing and predestining everything does not mean your will is any less free today than it was yesterday.
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It's all a matter of perspective. We all have the ability to choose freely ( from our perspective ). From Gods perspective he knows all that was, is and will be. He determines every single thing that happens in this world. He is sovereign even in life and death (job 1:21). Yet we still have a choice and a will, God knowing and predestining everything does not mean your will is any less free today than it was yesterday.
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