God Does Not Will Any To Be Lost, Some Men Do!

[tyndale1946]

Greetings Bro Glen! I don't get you question here? You have me out of the context here. Again, you have misquoted Jude 1.4, which does not say what the KJV makes it out to. "ordained" is the wrong translation of the Greek "προγράφω", which literally means, "to write before", from "προ" (before), and "γράφω", "to write". And then "condemnation" is also incorrect, where the Greek is "κρίμα", which here simply means "judgement, decision". The KJV with its Calvinistic slant, sees too much of its "theology" in places that say nothing of it!

There is not a single Scripture that says anyone was ever "ordained to eternal life". I know what Calvinists say, but I am more interested in what the Bible says!

Andy... If you are more interested in what the Bible says, why do Greekify it?... I have KJV and my Bible is in English and I realize that you are a Greek scholar and T.C. is too but T.C. doesn't use his Greek intellectuality to demean other brethren... I have one question and then I'm opting out of here... Why did God honor the cry of the dying martyr William Tyndale?... "God open the eyes of the King of England?"... and every English translation since then was because God answered that cry... If I want to find out what something means in Greek or Hebrew, which I seldom do I will check Strong's or some other Greek and Hebrew scholar but if I really, really want to know what it says I will let scripture interpret scripture... Brother Glen

 

[AndyAnsell]

God is not willing to have none whom will be saved to be lost, so that is why he is waiting now! The scoffers and mickers are as the false teachers...

But you are confused with what Peter is saying here. If, as you say this refers to the "elect", then what you say is right, that they cannot ever be lost. This is not in dispute. The problem arises from God being "long-suffering" (bear patiently) with them? Why would He need to do this for His chosen "elect", who will all be saved? It seems rather pointless to say this. Also, as they cannot perish, as they are "elect", it is inconsistent to say that God "does not desire this", as their repenting and being saved is a guarantee. This does not fit with language used for the saved.

 

[Van]

This is another verse where the textual evidence is quite divided, and therefore cannot be used for doctrinal purposes. Instead of "ἀπ' ἀρχῆς", "from the beginning", there is another reading, "ἀπαρχὴν", "as first-fruit", as Paul does in Romans 16:5, for the "first converts" in Achaia. Both reading have about the same Greek manuscript and ancient version support.

The variants do not alter the fact the verse says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. The variants probably address the fact that the Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning of the New Covenant as first fruits.

 

[SovereignGrace]

As long as you Calvinists cannot accept the FACT, that there is FREE WILL which is a God-given gift to all mankind, which allows a sinner to either accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you will never understand!

Someone is now showing their full rebellion to God's sovereignity for all to see. Man and God can't both be sovereign, so man is.

 

[SovereignGrace]

NONE of these verses says anything about the WILL of man! Look at the words of Jesus to the unbelievers:

"But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:38-40). NOTE, Jesus does NOT say, "you cannot will", but that "you do not will" of your own accord!

They can not come because they will not come, because their wicked heart precludes them from coming.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Who is the "their"? I don't believe this heresy!

That's what you're proclaiming here. God has to set back until you exercise your mythical free will. Your free will PLUS God's wooing equals salvation. You PLUS God equals...presto chango....salvation. You and God saved you. Own it, you're espousing it.

 

[AndyAnsell]

Andy... If you are more interested in what the Bible says, why do Greekify it?... I have KJV and my Bible is in English and I realize that you are a Greek scholar and T.C. is too but T.C. doesn't use his Greek intellectuality to demean other brethren... I have one question and then I'm opting out of here... Why did God honor the cry of the dying martyr William Tyndale?... "God open the eyes of the King of England?"... and every English translation since then was because God answered that cry... If I want to find out what something means in Greek or Hebrew, which I seldom do I will check Strong's or some other Greek and Hebrew scholar but if I really, really want to know what it says I will let scripture interpret scripture... Brother Glen

Thanks brother. sadly it is not as simple and straightforward as you make it out to be. Translations of the Bible in any language are the work of people who make use of whatever textual evidence there is available to them. When the KJV (which I love and use very much) was done, the available manuscripts and other textual evidence was limited in some ways, as since that time other discoveries have been made, some good and some bad. Again it is the job of the textual critic to try to establish the correct reading. Some examples are the ending of Mark's Gospel, the Lord's Prayer in Matthew, The woman caught in adultery in John, the famous text in 1 Timothy 3:16 for the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinitarian text of 1 John 5:7, all of which have textual problems that need to be addressed. You are quite wrong to say that I am trying to demean anyone, as I like all on here am interested in establishing the truth. I began Greek studies about 35 years ago when I was told that my KJV Bible was wrong in John 1:1, where it should read "a god", and not "God". I later learned that the person was a Jehovah's Witness. Strong's can be good for some basic meanings, but is hope less when, for example our English word "come" has over 40 Greeks words, which have very different meanings!

 

[Yeshua1]

But you are confused with what Peter is saying here. If, as you say this refers to the "elect", then what you say is right, that they cannot ever be lost. This is not in dispute. The problem arises from God being "long-suffering" (bear patiently) with them? Why would He need to do this for His chosen "elect", who will all be saved? It seems rather pointless to say this. Also, as they cannot perish, as they are "elect", it is inconsistent to say that God "does not desire this", as their repenting and being saved is a guarantee. This does not fit with language used for the saved.

God is willing to allow more time to pass before jesus returning, as still some to be saved here before that Event!

 

[Yeshua1]

The variants do not alter the fact the verse says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. The variants probably address the fact that the Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning of the New Covenant as first fruits.

God gave to us even that faith though!

 

[AndyAnsell]

They can not come because they will not come, because their wicked heart precludes them from coming.

Here is something of interest. In Isaiah 6 we read:

"Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed" (v9-10)

Paul, quoting this in Acts 28, says:

"‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’ (26-27)

In the account in Isaiah, it does not say who "shut their eyes", for example. But Paul makes this very clear, "their eyes THEY have closed", that they cannot accept the Gospel Message. There is no contradiction here, as Paul is quoting, not from the Hebrew Old Testament, but the Greek Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, which has Older Hebrew manuscripts underlying its text. So, clearly they cannot come, not because God is stopping them, but their CHOOSING to reject what the Bible says!

 

[AndyAnsell]

God gave to us even that faith though!

That's what you're proclaiming here. God has to set back until you exercise your mythical free will. Your free will PLUS God's wooing equals salvation. You PLUS God equals...presto chango....salvation. You and God saved you. Own it, you're espousing it.

I think you are confused on what I believe!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is something of interest. In Isaiah 6 we read:

"Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed" (v9-10)

Paul, quoting this in Acts 28, says:

"‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’ (26-27)

In the account in Isaiah, it does not say who "shut their eyes", for example. But Paul makes this very clear, "their eyes THEY have closed", that they cannot accept the Gospel Message. There is no contradiction here, as Paul is quoting, not from the Hebrew Old Testament, but the Greek Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, which has Older Hebrew manuscripts underlying its text. So, clearly they cannot come, not because God is stopping them, but their CHOOSING to reject what the Bible says!

They refused to heed the Lord jesus , so God just completed the hardening they started....Their acts still fulfilled OT prophecy , as the lord came unto them, and they were deaf and dumb to him!@

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is something of interest. In Isaiah 6 we read:

"Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed" (v9-10)

Paul, quoting this in Acts 28, says:

"‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’ (26-27)

In the account in Isaiah, it does not say who "shut their eyes", for example. But Paul makes this very clear, "their eyes THEY have closed", that they cannot accept the Gospel Message. There is no contradiction here, as Paul is quoting, not from the Hebrew Old Testament, but the Greek Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, which has Older Hebrew manuscripts underlying its text. So, clearly they cannot come, not because God is stopping them, but their CHOOSING to reject what the Bible says!

Ppl, being born dead in Adam, ALREADY have their eyes closed, their ears stopped up, their heart hardened, its called being spiritually dead. Dead ppl can't hear, see, or love.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ppl, being born dead in Adam, ALREADY have their eyes closed, their ears stopped up, their heart hardened, its called being spiritually dead. Dead ppl can hear, see, or love.

They acted out of their base sin naturs, and God just complete their hardening process. as a fulfillment of isaiah...

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think you are confused on what I believe!

Nope. Been right where you're at. You may not believe it, but you're sure enough proclaiming it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@AndyAnsell


Still waiting on quotes of ppl on here saying they are willing for ppl to die lost? Repent and apologizing to us for lying.

 

[AndyAnsell]

Ppl, being born dead in Adam, ALREADY have their eyes closed, their ears stopped up, their heart hardened, its called being spiritually dead. Dead ppl can hear, see, or love.

Now, are you saying that the Bible is wrong? I have clearly shown from the Word of God, that people "Close their OWN eyes" to the Truth of the Gospel, because they "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12). You must put aside your preconceived ideas and accept what the Bible teaches, even though it might show you to be wrong!

 

[AndyAnsell]

They acted out of their base sin naturs, and God just complete their hardening process. as a fulfillment of isaiah...

"they closed THEIR OWN eyes"

 

[AndyAnsell]

@AndyAnsell


Still waiting on quotes of ppl on here saying they are willing for ppl to die lost? Repent and apologizing to us for lying.

Read the comments by the Calvinists here and you will see for yourself, that I am right, as "predestination to life" is a Calvinistic theory, and the Bible is opposite to this!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now, are you saying that the Bible is wrong? I have clearly shown from the Word of God, that people "Close their OWN eyes" to the Truth of the Gospel, because they "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12). You must put aside your preconceived ideas and accept what the Bible teaches, even though it might show you to be wrong!

Welp, I am done with you. Off to ignore.

I don't believe your twisted beliefs, but hold the bible as the very word of God. Goodbye.