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Featured Predestination:

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Berean, May 22, 2017.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you are saying that we are born perfectly innocent but then that perfectly innocent person sins and thus becomes a sinner?

    What of David's lament? Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity - A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement.
    Adam Clarke 1760-1832.
     
    #21 TCassidy, May 24, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I am saying that we are born with a human nature. We are conceived in iniquity. But the issue is not, I believe one of being born deficient of the ability to do good. Rather, we are unable because we are unwilling - we are inclined to our own desires rather than to God. We are therefore legitimately responsible for our sin rather than our sin simply being a product of the way God has made us.
     
    #22 JonC, May 24, 2017
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I completely agree. Just the fact that Jesus is the "Lamb slain before Creation" demonstrates, I believe, that the cause agent and the effect was predestined. (But....I am one who believes that everything is predestined)
     
    #23 JonC, May 24, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    IF Jesus has the same nature as all of us do, then he was a sinner, correct?
    And Adam was free to chose to obey God or not, as right after he sinned, he died spiritually, as all of us now in him do also!
     
    #24 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam spiritually died right after He fell, so there was a real change in his nature!
     
    #25 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  6. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    A sinner can only be a person who actually commits a sin. Every human being born has a sinful nature. What do you think the Bible means when it says, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16). "neither having done any good or evil" (Romans 9:11). Which says there was a time they had not "done any good or evil"
     
    #26 AndyMartin, May 24, 2017
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all. Who has claimed we are born deficient of the ability to do good? And who has claimed we are not responsible for our sin? And who said it was God who made us this way?

    So, the question remains: Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners.

    Let's use an illustration. Does my dog bark because he is a dog or is he a dog because he barks? :)
     
    #27 TCassidy, May 24, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We sin, die to us being born with a sin nature that comes out from early on!
     
    #28 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God created Adam to be morally perfect, having no sin nature, same way for jesus, the second Adam!
     
    #29 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  10. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    This has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Granted that God created Adam and Eve perfect and sinless. However, when satan tempted them, they did not have a "fallen nature", so he was able to successfully tempt a "perfect nature"? Just some thoughts...
     
    #30 AndyMartin, May 24, 2017
  11. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Science shows us that infants as young as 6 months can lie to their parents.
     
    #31 MennoSota, May 24, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I am more interested in understanding how/why satan fell, as he seemed to have it all!
     
    #32 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And take stuff away and get angry real young!
     
    #33 Yeshua1, May 24, 2017
  14. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    please explain the two Scriptures that I have given. Science is man-made and completely unreliable. So what are they before 6 months?
     
    #34 AndyMartin, May 24, 2017
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  15. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    God in His infinite Wisdom has chosen not to tell us, like the origin of evil/sin
     
    #35 AndyMartin, May 24, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No.

    What I am saying is that Adam, Jesus, JonC and Yesua1 all have the freedom to choose and all have a human nature. None of these people were forced to sin by their created nature yet all but one of them chose to sin of their own accord. I am saying that Jesus really did become human.
     
    #36 JonC, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  17. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You seem to indicate that they are sinless.

    I believe they are born in sin. I also believe that God's grace is sufficient to save them. I take this from the belief David expressed when the infant born to Bathsheba died. David expressed that he would one day see his child again.

    The two scripture passages you site do not say that children are born sinless.
     
    #37 MennoSota, May 24, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    What is interesting is that God does not provide grace and a pardon for the rebellion of the fallen angels. Yet, God extends grace to humans.

    The Bible says that angels long to understand this, which means that they too do not fully understand the mind of God.
     
    #38 MennoSota, May 24, 2017
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't know who has claimed what. You asked me about what I believed and I gave you the best answer that I could.

    As I said, we are sinners because we sin - there is no such thing as a sinless sinner. We sin because our desires are turned towards the flesh rather than to God.

    Here's an illustration: Do we love God because we are saved or are we saved because we love God?
     
    #39 JonC, May 24, 2017
  20. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    I am saying nothing. Paul very clearly says, "neither having done any good or evil". So, by "evil" we must understand "sin" Both passages say that there is a time, only known to God, that babies, do not sin before they actually commit sin. You are assuming that David's child was "elect"? Based on what?
     
    #40 AndyMartin, May 24, 2017
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