Predestination:

[TCassidy]

I suppose one is a sinner when he or she sins

So you are saying that we are born perfectly innocent but then that perfectly innocent person sins and thus becomes a sinner?

What of David's lament? Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity - A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement.
Adam Clarke 1760-1832.

 

[JonC]

So you are saying that we are born perfectly innocent but then that perfectly innocent person sins and thus becomes a sinner?

What of David's lament? Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity - A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement.
Adam Clarke 1760-1832.

No, I am saying that we are born with a human nature. We are conceived in iniquity. But the issue is not, I believe one of being born deficient of the ability to do good. Rather, we are unable because we are unwilling - we are inclined to our own desires rather than to God. We are therefore legitimately responsible for our sin rather than our sin simply being a product of the way God has made us.

 

[JonC]

What we know is what Paul shares in Romans 5.

Romans 5
[12]When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT)

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

How does this verse inform our understanding of the human condition before and after the fall. Does it imply a change in nature?

It certainly states that something new was introduced into the world, which resulted in death. Cause and effect.

Was the cause agent and effect predestined?

My answer is...yes.

What I may never know is...why. Why did God ordain such a cause and effect upon the world He created? I do not know. Yet, I trust God's plan despite my failure to understand.

I completely agree. Just the fact that Jesus is the "Lamb slain before Creation" demonstrates, I believe, that the cause agent and the effect was predestined. (But....I am one who believes that everything is predestined)

 

[Yeshua1]

No, brother. For clarification, I believe God created Adam with the same nature as you and I - a human nature. I also believe Jesus took upon himself this nature when he became human. But Adam sinned and through his sin death entered the world and spread to all men for all have sinned. But I do not believe we are created with a different nature than Adam.

IF Jesus has the same nature as all of us do, then he was a sinner, correct?
And Adam was free to chose to obey God or not, as right after he sinned, he died spiritually, as all of us now in him do also!

 

[Yeshua1]

What we know is what Paul shares in Romans 5.

Romans 5
[12]When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT)

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

How does this verse inform our understanding of the human condition before and after the fall. Does it imply a change in nature?

It certainly states that something new was introduced into the world, which resulted in death. Cause and effect.

Was the cause agent and effect predestined?

My answer is...yes.

What I may never know is...why. Why did God ordain such a cause and effect upon the world He created? I do not know. Yet, I trust God's plan despite my failure to understand.

Adam spiritually died right after He fell, so there was a real change in his nature!

 

[AndyMartin]

So, do we sin because we are sinners or are we sinners because we sin?

Was Adam predestinated? Please answer and give scripture support. This question arose during SS Class yesterday (Bible Study for you Millennials).

A sinner can only be a person who actually commits a sin. Every human being born has a sinful nature. What do you think the Bible means when it says, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16). "neither having done any good or evil" (Romans 9:11). Which says there was a time they had not "done any good or evil"

 

[TCassidy]

But the issue is not, I believe one of being born deficient of the ability to do good. Rather, we are unable because we are unwilling - we are inclined to our own desires rather than to God. We are therefore legitimately responsible for our sin rather than our sin simply being a product of the way God has made us.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all. Who has claimed we are born deficient of the ability to do good? And who has claimed we are not responsible for our sin? And who said it was God who made us this way?

So, the question remains: Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners.

Let's use an illustration. Does my dog bark because he is a dog or is he a dog because he barks?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all. Who has claimed we are born deficient of the ability to do good? And who has claimed we are not responsible for our sin? And who said it was God who made us this way?

So, the question remains: Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners.

Let's use an illustration. Does my dog bark because he is a dog or is he a dog because he barks?

We sin, die to us being born with a sin nature that comes out from early on!

 

[Yeshua1]

A sinner can only be a person who actually commits a sin. Every human being born has a sinful nature. What do you think the Bible means when it says, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16). "neither having done any good or evil" (Romans 9:11). Which says there was a time they had not "done any good or evil"

God created Adam to be morally perfect, having no sin nature, same way for jesus, the second Adam!

 

[AndyMartin]

God created Adam to be morally perfect, having no sin nature, same way for jesus, the second Adam!

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Granted that God created Adam and Eve perfect and sinless. However, when satan tempted them, they did not have a "fallen nature", so he was able to successfully tempt a "perfect nature"? Just some thoughts...

 

[MennoSota]

A sinner can only be a person who actually commits a sin. Every human being born has a sinful nature. What do you think the Bible means when it says, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16). "neither having done any good or evil" (Romans 9:11). Which says there was a time they had not "done any good or evil"

Science shows us that infants as young as 6 months can lie to their parents.

 

[Yeshua1]

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Granted that God created Adam and Eve perfect and sinless. However, when satan tempted them, they did not have a "fallen nature", so he was able to successfully tempt a "perfect nature"? Just some thoughts...

I am more interested in understanding how/why satan fell, as he seemed to have it all!

 

[Yeshua1]

Science shows us that infants as young as 6 months can lie to their parents.

And take stuff away and get angry real young!

 

[AndyMartin]

Science shows us that infants as young as 6 months can lie to their parents.

please explain the two Scriptures that I have given. Science is man-made and completely unreliable. So what are they before 6 months?

 

[AndyMartin]

I am more interested in understanding how/why satan fell, as he seemed to have it all!

God in His infinite Wisdom has chosen not to tell us, like the origin of evil/sin

 

[JonC]

IF Jesus has the same nature as all of us do, then he was a sinner, correct?
And Adam was free to chose to obey God or not, as right after he sinned, he died spiritually, as all of us now in him do also!

No.

What I am saying is that Adam, Jesus, JonC and Yesua1 all have the freedom to choose and all have a human nature. None of these people were forced to sin by their created nature yet all but one of them chose to sin of their own accord. I am saying that Jesus really did become human.

 

[MennoSota]

please explain the two Scriptures that I have given. Science is man-made as completely unreliable. So what are they before 6 months?

You seem to indicate that they are sinless.

I believe they are born in sin. I also believe that God's grace is sufficient to save them. I take this from the belief David expressed when the infant born to Bathsheba died. David expressed that he would one day see his child again.

The two scripture passages you site do not say that children are born sinless.

 

[MennoSota]

I am more interested in understanding how/why satan fell, as he seemed to have it all!

What is interesting is that God does not provide grace and a pardon for the rebellion of the fallen angels. Yet, God extends grace to humans.

The Bible says that angels long to understand this, which means that they too do not fully understand the mind of God.

 

[JonC]

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all. Who has claimed we are born deficient of the ability to do good? And who has claimed we are not responsible for our sin? And who said it was God who made us this way?

So, the question remains: Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners.

Let's use an illustration. Does my dog bark because he is a dog or is he a dog because he barks?

I don't know who has claimed what. You asked me about what I believed and I gave you the best answer that I could.

As I said, we are sinners because we sin - there is no such thing as a sinless sinner. We sin because our desires are turned towards the flesh rather than to God.

Here's an illustration: Do we love God because we are saved or are we saved because we love God?

 

[AndyMartin]

You seem to indicate that they are sinless.

I believe they are born in sin. I also believe that God's grace is sufficient to save them. I take this from the belief David expressed when the infant born to Bathsheba died. David expressed that he would one day see his child again.

The two scripture passages you site do not say that children are born sinless.

I am saying nothing. Paul very clearly says, "neither having done any good or evil". So, by "evil" we must understand "sin" Both passages say that there is a time, only known to God, that babies, do not sin before they actually commit sin. You are assuming that David's child was "elect"? Based on what?