Does Love Require Free Will?

[MennoSota]

Read Habakkuk and see the God who uses whom He wills to accomplish His good and perfect plan.

We have to stop creating a wimpy, sanitized God of our own imagination. That God is not the God who we see in the Bible. In the Bible we see a holy and just God who tells us what is good and what is evil. We never dare to tell God that His actions are evil...even when we cannot comprehend why He has ordained that we should suffer.

 

[utilyan]

Of course God is not evil. When God took his wrath for sin out on Jesus it was not evil. When God ordained Job's suffering at the hands of Satan it was not evil.

Utilyan, you have come up with your own concept of what is good and what is evil. You then demand that God fit into your definition. You have no right or authority to demand that the Sovereign God of the Universe fit into your conception of good and evil.

Show us the verse where Satan makes a request to attack Job, Show us where God accepts this.

You have the easiest case in the world, all you have to do is write out the exact words.

The verses do not exist.

You keep taking my tone as an attack, As you do with the rest of the bible you just make things up.


Which of these verses is true which is made up? Which of these verses is really in the bible?

Why is picking out which verse is true and actually in the bible so offensive?

I think most Christians would consider it a complete joy.


A
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

B
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes after being made righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


A
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

B
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to cause belief in those he saved.

A
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


B
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ye believed,


A
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

B
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[utilyan]

Read Habakkuk and see the God who uses whom He wills to accomplish His good and perfect plan.

We have to stop creating a wimpy, sanitized God of our own imagination. That God is not the God who we see in the Bible. In the Bible we see a holy and just God who tells us what is good and what is evil. We never dare to tell God that His actions are evil...even when we cannot comprehend why He has ordained that we should suffer.

You've been saying he ordains evil.

Scripture doesn't say we can't comprehend his will. or that its a mystery who Christians are, You just assume might makes right, that is rather lazy and not backed by scripture.

John 15

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.


Jesus is not wimpy. In terms of humility and submission you can't quite top sacrificing your own son for another.

 

[MennoSota]

Show us the verse where Satan makes a request to attack Job, Show us where God accepts this.

You have the easiest case in the world, all you have to do is write out the exact words.

The verses do not exist.

You keep taking my tone as an attack, As you do with the rest of the bible you just make things up.


Which of these verses is true which is made up? Which of these verses is really in the bible?

Why is picking out which verse is true and actually in the bible so offensive?

I think most Christians would consider it a complete joy.


A
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

B
Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes after being made righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


A
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

B
1 Corinthians 1:21

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to cause belief in those he saved.

A
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


B
Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ye believed,


A
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

B
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Utilyan, you have already been shown. The text is before you and you reject what it says. How I wish you could accept what God says.

 

[MennoSota]

You've been saying he ordains evil.

Scripture doesn't say we can't comprehend his will. or that its a mystery who Christians are, You just assume might makes right, that is rather lazy and not backed by scripture.

John 15

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.


Jesus is not wimpy. In terms of humility and submission you can't quite top sacrificing your own son for another.

What has the Bible been saying? I provided both Job and Habakkuk for you to see what God does. Why do you reject what God says?
The passage you quote shows God's sovereign choice and His ordination. God sacrificed His Son for humans. Yet, you want to call that ordained choice...evil. Why do you hate God and His will whenever it doesn't fit your image of your god?

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that salvation is the work of God by which He creates us in Christ. I don't believe that God gives us a new heart/spirit in order that we can be saved, but that this supernatural act of God is salvation itself.

There is the order of God granting to us the new heart, which then enables us to place saving faith into Jesus, as its all part of the salvation package from God.

 

[Yeshua1]

God does not say YES to Satan only YOU DO.

Why don't you WRITE out the verse where God says YES to Satan's request?

Because that verse doesn't exist.


Hey you say God killed Jesus SAY THAT THEN!

God is not Evil. I already gave clear passage he does not even tempt people to sin let alone force them to sin. 1 Corinthians 10


You are not a bible believer and you make half of it all up.

You want to blame God for your sins. Your sinful lifestyle needs a license.

What you need to do is repent and accept responsibility for the sins you have committed.


God ordained that I come down and whoop your sorry fake god. If he didn't want me to I'd be dead already.

So when Jesus stated that Satan asked God to be allowed to test Peter and cause him to fall, God was not involved in that at all?

 

[Yeshua1]

What has the Bible been saying? I provided both Job and Habakkuk for you to see what God does. Why do you reject what God says?
The passage you quote shows God's sovereign choice and His ordination. God sacrificed His Son for humans. Yet, you want to call that ordained choice...evil. Why do you hate God and His will whenever it doesn't fit your image of your god?

When the created creature has the audacity to dare to question what the Creator has deemed to be done, than that person is having a real hard time understanding God! The ultimate logic where that leads to is when satan decided that he could do better playing God than God was able to do!

 

[The Biblicist]

Much of modern evangelism functions on the assumption that all human beings have inherent ability to come to Christ by faith. They claim all humans have faith and they use it every day. They exercise faith when they sit down on a chair believing it will hold their weight. They exercise faith in friends and family to do what they promise. They exercise faith in government to protect their rights. They exercise faith in many of the things they do every day. Therefore, they assume they are also equally capable of coming to Christ by faith. They argue, why else preach the gospel unless it is assumed that man has ability to respond to it? These are persuasive arguments.

However, natural faith is only possible where there is willingness to exercise faith in such things. It is equally true that people choose not to exercise faith in many things every day. Many do not choose to place their trust in government, politicians or in certain other people and things simply because they are not willing to do so.

Willingness is always determined by how a person thinks or how a person feels toward a certain person or thing. If we don’t like someone or something, or have reason to be suspicious of someone or something, we will never be inclined to place our trust in that something or someone until our mind and/or feelings are positively disposed toward that someone or something. Therefore, inability to trust is due to the inward disposition of thought and feelings toward someone or something.

The position of natural faith assumes that nothing affects the natural inclination of fallen men toward God, and therefore fallen man has no dispositional problems with God which would prevent willing trust in the gospel or God. However, if the fallen nature is naturally disposed against God, then that would prevent willingness to trust or submit to either God or the gospel.

There is sufficient Biblical evidence to demonstrate that the heart of fallen man is naturally disposed against God (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). The emotional (Jn. 3:19-20) and intellectual (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14) dispositions of fallen man are in opposition to God, so that he will not come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:40). Indeed, the Scriptures demand that this internal opposition to God is irreversible by man but can only be changed by a supernatural work of God.

This must be the case with all fallen men or why else would Christ say, “No man can come to me” (Jn. 6:44)? Christ did not say “some” men cannot come to me, but “no man” can. That is at minimal, an assertion of universal unwillingness to come to Christ. It is this unwillingness that is the root of man’s inability to come to Christ. He said no man “can.” The Greek term translated “can” is dunamis or the common Greek term translated “power” or ability. Jesus is saying in the clearest possible language that “no man IS ABLE to come to me.” If that were not true, then why would the exception clause immediately follow - “except the Father draw him”? This exception clause demands that only a supernatural work of God can change that natural inability to come to Christ by faith. Therefore, this proves that natural faith is not sufficient for men to come to Christ or else there would be no exception clause at all.

Furthermore, in response to, why preach the gospel if men were not inherently able to come to Christ by faith, it may be equally argued that the gospel may be the chosen means (2 Thes. 2:13) through which God may choose to empower (1 Thes. 1:4-5) to change that inward disposition against God to a willingness to come to Christ by faith and that is why we are to preach the gospel. Therefore, God hath “chosen” the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe! And who are they? They are only those who have first been given by the Father to come to the Son in faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblical Doctrine of Faith is the Prerequisite to works

Then said they to him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent. – Jn. 6:28-29

Those who disguise the Gospel of works as the Gospel of grace teach that all men are capable of exercising faith or are able to come to Christ by faith. In our text above this was the belief of the crowd that followed Jesus. They claimed they could work the “works” (plural) of God? Jesus knew that faith in him must precede any works acceptable unto God (Eph. 2:10). Hence, Jesus replied in the singular this is the “work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent.” Jesus is saying that the ability to believe on him is the “work of God” and not of men. His audience repudiated that claim by asserting they were able to believe upon him if he simply provided a miracle to substantiate their faith (v. 30). Jesus responded that they had already seen him do miracles (feeding the 5000) but believed not (v. 36) and only those first given by the Father will come to Christ by faith (vv. 37-39).Hence, saving faith is the result of this work of God - being given to the Son. Indeed, God gave “all” of these to Christ before the incarnation as Jesus came into the world for the very purpose to secure “all” whom the Father had already “given” to him (v. 39 “given” – aorist tense). Therefore, not only is the act of giving in verse 37 is the grammatical cause for all those coming to Christ, but the act of giving preceded and is the grammatical cause for the incarnation in verses 38-39. At this point Jesus introduces the phrase which he will repeat in verses 40, 44 and 54 that is designed to confirm that “all” whom the Father gave (v. 39b), which are all who come to him by faith (v. 40b), which are also “all” those drawn by the Father (v. 44), which are are also “all” who metaphorically drink and eat of him (believe) (v. 54), these “all” will be raised up at the last day – “but should raise it up again at the last day”(vv. 39, 40, 44, 54).

Faith or coming to Christ believingly is “the work of God” as all who come must first be “given” by the Father (vv.37-39), must first be drawn by the Father (v.44) as “no man can come” except they are given and drawn by the Father. Hence, coming to Christ by faith is “the work of God.” Moreover, not all men without exception are given or drawn by the father as Jesus explicitly denies those “disciples” which left him and Judas who betrayed him were drawn by the Father (vv. 64-66). Neither are just Jews given and drawn by the Father but all classes, genders and social strata of men (Jn. 12:32) as the “Greeks” who wished to come to Jesus in John 12.

This is also confirmed by Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10. The subject is the quickening work of God (vv. 1, 5) which is parenthetically described as being “saved” in verse 5 and in verse 8.This act of quickening or being “saved” is found in the perfect tense as a completed action that was accomplished in connection with faith. Paul says:

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. – Eph. 2:8-10

There are three points to make about verse 8. First, the act of quickening which Paul uses the word “saved” to characterize was a completed action (perfect tense) but that action was “through faith” which means that faith occurred within that completed action of being saved. Second, “through faith” as a prepositional phrase is what Paul refers to as “that not of yourselves, It is a gift of God, not of works for we are his workmanship” or as Jesus said in John 6:29 that believing in him is “the work of God.” This is Paul’s intent because he describes the completed work being described as having been created “in Christ” and it is not possible to be “in Christ” except “through faith.” Third, some expositors object that the phrase “and that not of yourselves” can refer to “faith” because “faith” is found in the feminine while this phrase is in the neuter gender and therefore must refer to “saved by grace.” However, that is also found in the feminine gender. Therefore, if the feminine gender is a disqualifying point then there is no grammatical antecedent for “and not of yourselves….” Paul is not referring to the individual word “faith” but to the whole prepositional phrase “through faith” as it would be redundant to claim “grace” is not of yourselves as that is self-evident, but it is the prepositional qualifying phrase “through faith” that is the work of God without which one could not be “in Christ Jesus.” However, it could be argued that the whole things “saved by grace through faith” is what Paul is referring to because “through faith” logically and grammatically identical in action with the perfect tense “saved” as one is “saved through faith.” However, the point is that quickening and faith are simultaneous in action and faith is the “work of God” that places one “in Christ.”
Again, in 2 Cor. 4:6 Paul demonstrates that saving faith is a simultaneous act with quickening as the creative work of God.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.- 2 Cor. 4:5-6

The analogy is clear! Paul is likening this work of God in the dark heart of men to the creative command in Genesis 1:3 where God by effectually calling commanded light to come into existence within a dark world displacing the darkness with the light. Paul is describing God’s use of the gospel as His effectual call that creates metaphorical “light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” within the darkened heart which light displaces the darkness of unbelief.

In Hebrews 11:1 Paul says that “faith is the substance of things hoped for.” The “substance” of saving faith is “the knowledge” provided in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel also provides the “hope” of saving faith. In 2 Cor. 4:6 Paul claims that by the creative act of God within the darkened human heart that God takes the gospel and makes it his effectual command to create “the knowledge” that displaces the darkness of unbelief within the human heart. He makes the heart see the glory of God “in the face of Jesus Christ” as presented in the gospel. In other words “this is the work of God that ye believe on him” as we are “created in Christ Jesus.”

Paul also teaches the same thing in Romans 10:17 where he says “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word (Gr. rhema) of God.” He does not use the Greek term logos which refers to a manifest word but he uses rhema that refers to the word of command. This is demonstrated by the continuing context as he immediately states:

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes truly, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. – Rom. 10:18

Just the external hearing of the manifest word does not producing faith as they have all “heard” the commands of men and yet no faith is produced. It is the “rhema (command) of God” that produces faith.

Saving faith is the work of God, it is “of grace” (Rom. 4:16) and a “gift of God” (Eph. 2:8; Philp. 2:9) and is not of men (Jn. 6:44) as Jesus is the “author and the finisher” of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

 

[Yeshua1]

Much of modern evangelism functions on the assumption that all human beings have inherent ability to come to Christ by faith. They claim all humans have faith and they use it every day. They exercise faith when they sit down on a chair believing it will hold their weight. They exercise faith in friends and family to do what they promise. They exercise faith in government to protect their rights. They exercise faith in many of the things they do every day. Therefore, they assume they are also equally capable of coming to Christ by faith. They argue, why else preach the gospel unless it is assumed that man has ability to respond to it? These are persuasive arguments.

However, natural faith is only possible where there is willingness to exercise faith in such things. It is equally true that people choose not to exercise faith in many things every day. Many do not choose to place their trust in government, politicians or in certain other people and things simply because they are not willing to do so.

Willingness is always determined by how a person thinks or how a person feels toward a certain person or thing. If we don’t like someone or something, or have reason to be suspicious of someone or something, we will never be inclined to place our trust in that something or someone until our mind and/or feelings are positively disposed toward that someone or something. Therefore, inability to trust is due to the inward disposition of thought and feelings toward someone or something.

The position of natural faith assumes that nothing affects the natural inclination of fallen men toward God, and therefore fallen man has no dispositional problems with God which would prevent willing trust in the gospel or God. However, if the fallen nature is naturally disposed against God, then that would prevent willingness to trust or submit to either God or the gospel.

There is sufficient Biblical evidence to demonstrate that the heart of fallen man is naturally disposed against God (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). The emotional (Jn. 3:19-20) and intellectual (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14) dispositions of fallen man are in opposition to God, so that he will not come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:40). Indeed, the Scriptures demand that this internal opposition to God is irreversible by man but can only be changed by a supernatural work of God.

This must be the case with all fallen men or why else would Christ say, “No man can come to me” (Jn. 6:44)? Christ did not say “some” men cannot come to me, but “no man” can. That is at minimal, an assertion of universal unwillingness to come to Christ. It is this unwillingness that is the root of man’s inability to come to Christ. He said no man “can.” The Greek term translated “can” is dunamis or the common Greek term translated “power” or ability. Jesus is saying in the clearest possible language that “no man IS ABLE to come to me.” If that were not true, then why would the exception clause immediately follow - “except the Father draw him”? This exception clause demands that only a supernatural work of God can change that natural inability to come to Christ by faith. Therefore, this proves that natural faith is not sufficient for men to come to Christ or else there would be no exception clause at all.

Furthermore, in response to, why preach the gospel if men were not inherently able to come to Christ by faith, it may be equally argued that the gospel may be the chosen means (2 Thes. 2:13) through which God may choose to empower (1 Thes. 1:4-5) to change that inward disposition against God to a willingness to come to Christ by faith and that is why we are to preach the gospel. Therefore, God hath “chosen” the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe! And who are they? They are only those who have first been given by the Father to come to the Son in faith.

The saving faith required to be saved is given to us by God Himself.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Biblical Doctrine of Faith is the Prerequisite to works

Then said they to him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent. – Jn. 6:28-29

Those who disguise the Gospel of works as the Gospel of grace teach that all men are capable of exercising faith or are able to come to Christ by faith. In our text above this was the belief of the crowd that followed Jesus. They claimed they could work the “works” (plural) of God? Jesus knew that faith in him must precede any works acceptable unto God (Eph. 2:10). Hence, Jesus replied in the singular this is the “work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent.” Jesus is saying that the ability to believe on him is the “work of God” and not of men. His audience repudiated that claim by asserting they were able to believe upon him if he simply provided a miracle to substantiate their faith (v. 30). Jesus responded that they had already seen him do miracles (feeding the 5000) but believed not (v. 36) and only those first given by the Father will come to Christ by faith (vv. 37-39).Hence, saving faith is the result of this work of God - being given to the Son. Indeed, God gave “all” of these to Christ before the incarnation as Jesus came into the world for the very purpose to secure “all” whom the Father had already “given” to him (v. 39 “given” – aorist tense). Therefore, not only is the act of giving in verse 37 is the grammatical cause for all those coming to Christ, but the act of giving preceded and is the grammatical cause for the incarnation in verses 38-39. At this point Jesus introduces the phrase which he will repeat in verses 40, 44 and 54 that is designed to confirm that “all” whom the Father gave (v. 39b), which are all who come to him by faith (v. 40b), which are also “all” those drawn by the Father (v. 44), which are are also “all” who metaphorically drink and eat of him (believe) (v. 54), these “all” will be raised up at the last day – “but should raise it up again at the last day”(vv. 39, 40, 44, 54).

Faith or coming to Christ believingly is “the work of God” as all who come must first be “given” by the Father (vv.37-39), must first be drawn by the Father (v.44) as “no man can come” except they are given and drawn by the Father. Hence, coming to Christ by faith is “the work of God.” Moreover, not all men without exception are given or drawn by the father as Jesus explicitly denies those “disciples” which left him and Judas who betrayed him were drawn by the Father (vv. 64-66). Neither are just Jews given and drawn by the Father but all classes, genders and social strata of men (Jn. 12:32) as the “Greeks” who wished to come to Jesus in John 12.

This is also confirmed by Paul in Ephesians 2:1-10. The subject is the quickening work of God (vv. 1, 5) which is parenthetically described as being “saved” in verse 5 and in verse 8.This act of quickening or being “saved” is found in the perfect tense as a completed action that was accomplished in connection with faith. Paul says:

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. – Eph. 2:8-10

There are three points to make about verse 8. First, the act of quickening which Paul uses the word “saved” to characterize was a completed action (perfect tense) but that action was “through faith” which means that faith occurred within that completed action of being saved. Second, “through faith” as a prepositional phrase is what Paul refers to as “that not of yourselves, It is a gift of God, not of works for we are his workmanship” or as Jesus said in John 6:29 that believing in him is “the work of God.” This is Paul’s intent because he describes the completed work being described as having been created “in Christ” and it is not possible to be “in Christ” except “through faith.” Third, some expositors object that the phrase “and that not of yourselves” can refer to “faith” because “faith” is found in the feminine while this phrase is in the neuter gender and therefore must refer to “saved by grace.” However, that is also found in the feminine gender. Therefore, if the feminine gender is a disqualifying point then there is no grammatical antecedent for “and not of yourselves….” Paul is not referring to the individual word “faith” but to the whole prepositional phrase “through faith” as it would be redundant to claim “grace” is not of yourselves as that is self-evident, but it is the prepositional qualifying phrase “through faith” that is the work of God without which one could not be “in Christ Jesus.” However, it could be argued that the whole things “saved by grace through faith” is what Paul is referring to because “through faith” logically and grammatically identical in action with the perfect tense “saved” as one is “saved through faith.” However, the point is that quickening and faith are simultaneous in action and faith is the “work of God” that places one “in Christ.”
Again, in 2 Cor. 4:6 Paul demonstrates that saving faith is a simultaneous act with quickening as the creative work of God.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.- 2 Cor. 4:5-6

The analogy is clear! Paul is likening this work of God in the dark heart of men to the creative command in Genesis 1:3 where God by effectually calling commanded light to come into existence within a dark world displacing the darkness with the light. Paul is describing God’s use of the gospel as His effectual call that creates metaphorical “light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” within the darkened heart which light displaces the darkness of unbelief.

In Hebrews 11:1 Paul says that “faith is the substance of things hoped for.” The “substance” of saving faith is “the knowledge” provided in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel also provides the “hope” of saving faith. In 2 Cor. 4:6 Paul claims that by the creative act of God within the darkened human heart that God takes the gospel and makes it his effectual command to create “the knowledge” that displaces the darkness of unbelief within the human heart. He makes the heart see the glory of God “in the face of Jesus Christ” as presented in the gospel. In other words “this is the work of God that ye believe on him” as we are “created in Christ Jesus.”

Paul also teaches the same thing in Romans 10:17 where he says “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word (Gr. rhema) of God.” He does not use the Greek term logos which refers to a manifest word but he uses rhema that refers to the word of command. This is demonstrated by the continuing context as he immediately states:

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes truly, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. – Rom. 10:18

Just the external hearing of the manifest word does not producing faith as they have all “heard” the commands of men and yet no faith is produced. It is the “rhema (command) of God” that produces faith.

Saving faith is the work of God, it is “of grace” (Rom. 4:16) and a “gift of God” (Eph. 2:8; Philp. 2:9) and is not of men (Jn. 6:44) as Jesus is the “author and the finisher” of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

The Gospel of John is [pretty much Calvinism 101, and the advanced course is Romans!

 

[JonC]

There is the order of God granting to us the new heart, which then enables us to place saving faith into Jesus, as its all part of the salvation package from God.

I believe this is an error. God saves us and His giving us a new heart is an aspect of this salvation (not a step in the process).

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe this is an error. God saves us and His giving us a new heart is an aspect of this salvation (not a step in the process).

Jon, these are simeltaneous in time. The term "saved" is introduced in Ephesians 2:5 as a parenthetical explanation of having been "quickened" both Aorist tense simeltaneous action. So you are right it is not a "step in the process."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This question is tied in with the doctrine of the New Birth.
'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again [or 'from above'] he cannot see the kingdom of God.'
So where does this new birth come from? Is it something I can get for myself, or does it come from God?
This article may be helpful. The New Birth (3). The Source of the New Birth

 

[Yeshua1]

Jon, these are simeltaneous in time. The term "saved" is introduced in Ephesians 2:5 as a parenthetical explanation of having been "quickened" both Aorist tense simeltaneous action. So you are right it is not a "step in the process."

They are to me the flip side of a coin, but God does gave to the sinner a new heart and the faith to believe unto jesus, and the person once enabled will come to faith in Jesus, as to us looks like same timing.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe this is an error. God saves us and His giving us a new heart is an aspect of this salvation (not a step in the process).

They are to me the flip side of a coin, but God does gave to the sinner a new heart and the faith to believe unto jesus, and the person once enabled will come to faith in Jesus, as to us looks like same timing.

This question is tied in with the doctrine of the New Birth.
'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again [or 'from above'] he cannot see the kingdom of God.'
So where does this new birth come from? Is it something I can get for myself, or does it come from God?
This article may be helpful. The New Birth (3). The Source of the New Birth

Born from above pretty much sums it up..

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.

 

[utilyan]

Much of modern evangelism functions on the assumption that all human beings have inherent ability to come to Christ by faith. They claim all humans have faith and they use it every day. They exercise faith when they sit down on a chair believing it will hold their weight. They exercise faith in friends and family to do what they promise. They exercise faith in government to protect their rights. They exercise faith in many of the things they do every day. Therefore, they assume they are also equally capable of coming to Christ by faith. They argue, why else preach the gospel unless it is assumed that man has ability to respond to it? These are persuasive arguments.

However, natural faith is only possible where there is willingness to exercise faith in such things. It is equally true that people choose not to exercise faith in many things every day. Many do not choose to place their trust in government, politicians or in certain other people and things simply because they are not willing to do so.

Willingness is always determined by how a person thinks or how a person feels toward a certain person or thing. If we don’t like someone or something, or have reason to be suspicious of someone or something, we will never be inclined to place our trust in that something or someone until our mind and/or feelings are positively disposed toward that someone or something. Therefore, inability to trust is due to the inward disposition of thought and feelings toward someone or something.

The position of natural faith assumes that nothing affects the natural inclination of fallen men toward God, and therefore fallen man has no dispositional problems with God which would prevent willing trust in the gospel or God. However, if the fallen nature is naturally disposed against God, then that would prevent willingness to trust or submit to either God or the gospel.

There is sufficient Biblical evidence to demonstrate that the heart of fallen man is naturally disposed against God (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). The emotional (Jn. 3:19-20) and intellectual (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14) dispositions of fallen man are in opposition to God, so that he will not come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:40). Indeed, the Scriptures demand that this internal opposition to God is irreversible by man but can only be changed by a supernatural work of God.

This must be the case with all fallen men or why else would Christ say, “No man can come to me” (Jn. 6:44)? Christ did not say “some” men cannot come to me, but “no man” can. That is at minimal, an assertion of universal unwillingness to come to Christ. It is this unwillingness that is the root of man’s inability to come to Christ. He said no man “can.” The Greek term translated “can” is dunamis or the common Greek term translated “power” or ability. Jesus is saying in the clearest possible language that “no man IS ABLE to come to me.” If that were not true, then why would the exception clause immediately follow - “except the Father draw him”? This exception clause demands that only a supernatural work of God can change that natural inability to come to Christ by faith. Therefore, this proves that natural faith is not sufficient for men to come to Christ or else there would be no exception clause at all.

Furthermore, in response to, why preach the gospel if men were not inherently able to come to Christ by faith, it may be equally argued that the gospel may be the chosen means (2 Thes. 2:13) through which God may choose to empower (1 Thes. 1:4-5) to change that inward disposition against God to a willingness to come to Christ by faith and that is why we are to preach the gospel. Therefore, God hath “chosen” the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe! And who are they? They are only those who have first been given by the Father to come to the Son in faith.

Show us "NATURAL FAITH" in scripture. I believe this another attempt to create 2nd class virtues.

Show us one thing a Man can do without God's existence.

Show us one thing a Man can do without HIS OWN existence.

Show us what is NOT GOOD about being made in the Image of God.

 

[MennoSota]

Show us "NATURAL FAITH" in scripture. I believe this another attempt to create 2nd class virtues.

Show us one thing a Man can do without God's existence.

Show us one thing a Man can do without HIS OWN existence.

Show us what is NOT GOOD about being made in the Image of God.

Do you realize that your idea of being made in the image of God means that either God is a sinner or humans are sinless? Which one is it?

God is a being far different from human beings. No other being can exist outside of God's ordained decree and Sovereign watch.

Perhaps you struggle with the concept of being made in God's image.
The Image of God | Desiring God