• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does Love Require Free Will?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"unable and unwilling to approach God" = wicked as he can possibly be

You can't top that. Name one "GOOD" act that isn't for God, ill argue it is evil.
Your unbelieving neighbour is not as wicked as he can possibly be, since he hasn't murdered you yet.
It has to be GOD GIVEN to be natural. Sin is UNnatural. Sin is not natural at all.
Sin was not part of God's good creation, though it is of note that He pronounced it 'very good' and not perfect. Adam and Eve were made sinless, but defectable-- that is, they could fall.
Genesis is pretty clear of the consequences of Adam and Eve giving a big list. The absolute loss and capacity to approach God would have made all the other consequences look like Disneyland. Not a tweet given.
Genesis 3:24; Psalm 14:1-3 etc.).
Acts 17

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

If Paul or God for that matter believed groping/seeking for God were an impossibility he would not push for it,

In fact I believe under your doctrine seeking God is impossible because he regenerates first. In other words it is impossible for the "elect" to seek God.
Indeed so (John 6:44). But Mark 10:26-27. 'And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."'

Praise God for irresistible grace! :)
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The qualifying factor, lowest common denominator is that Man is made in the Image of God. If what you got there does not contain the Image of God, I would argue that is not a Man at all.
Genesis 1:27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.'
Genesis 5:3. 'And Adam lived 130 years, and begot a son after his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.'
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Evil and Sin is not Holy therefore not ordained.

God permits evil.

I already showed you scripture, God will not cause one to sin.

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


You keep trying to blame God, sorry, when you sin it is your fault not God's.
Did God say yes to Satan's request?

Could Satan have touched Job without God giving him the authorization?

Utilyan, you are desperately forcing your man-made belief on the text.

Perhaps your version of God is not the God of the Bible.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Does%2BLove%2BRequire%2BFree%2BWill.jpg


Central to God’s plan and desire for people is that we learn to love. He wants us to love Him, and He wants us to love each other. That love is central to God’s plan is expressed in many ways in Scripture:

NIV Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


NIV 1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

NIV 1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

The question I want to look at is whether the type of giving, sacrificial love which God wants to characterize our lives requires free will. The Bible does not address this question directly. So, first I will offer two analogies from our experience of love, and then I will offer some Biblical evidence, all of which seems to suggest that love does in fact require free will.

Two Suitors

Imagine two different young men, each of whom is attracted to a young lady. These two men employ very different strategies.

The first young man watches the girl he is interested in and learns some of her habits, including the path she often takes when walking home. One night he hides in a woody area along the path. As she walks by, he leaps out, grabs her, and drags her into the woods where he puts a knife to her throat.

The second young man also watches the girl he is interested in and learns some of her habits. He begins to try to start conversations about things she likes. He sends her flowers that are her favorite color. He then works up the courage to ask her to dinner at a restaurant that serves her favorite type of food.

Unless the young lady in question is a martial arts expert or is carrying a weapon, the first young man will almost certainly get something from her that he wants. But will he get her love? Of course, not.

The second young man is not guaranteed success. No matter how loving and attractive his advances, the girl may very well turn him down. The young man is risking his heart being hurt. But if she does accept him, he may very well win her love.

Two Grenades

Imagine two groups of soldiers standing around in a camp near the frontlines. Suddenly, from out of nowhere, a hand grenade is thrown towards them.

In the first group the grenade lands right behind one of the men who is unaware of it. In a split second it explodes. The man’s body takes the brunt of the blast and he himself is killed while his friends are all spared.

In the second group the grenade lands right in the middle of the group of soldiers. One of the soldiers who sees it leaps on it. His body absorbs the blast and he is killed while all his friends are saved.

In both stories one soldier’s death saves the others. But in only one of the stories do we see clearly that the sacrifice was an act of love. Why?

One Great Example from the Bible

Does the Bible have a similar example which teaches the same lesson as the stories above? I believe it does. Consider the words of Christ,

NIV John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

But does this sacrifice need to involve free will? In the case of Jesus, He emphasizes that His sacrifice was an act of His own free will:

John 10: 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
. . . .
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-- only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."


So, the greatest act of love in the universe was a sacrifice for others which involved an act of free will. Does God want us to have this type of love for others? The answer is yes:

NIV Ephesians 5:1 Follow God's example, therefore, as dearly loved children
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.


1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.


Conclusions

I’m not claiming that the evidence presented above forms an airtight proof that love requires free will. And I’m not even attempting to address the various types of free will which philosophers have proposed or discuss which of those types is needed to allow true, sacrificial, Christ-like love. I’m only claiming that our own experience of love and Christ’s great example of love point in the direction that love, at least the type that God wants us to have, does in fact require free will.

If this is true, it could help explain the way the world is and why our good and loving God is temporarily allowing so much evil in the world He created. Winning true love from a multitude of people may be worth the price of being rejected by many others. What do you think?

This OP originally appeared as a post on my blog.
I think it depends on how you define "free will". For example, some insist that men have "free will" in terms of will that is unrestricted by human nature (in the case of your examples of a Christ-like love, this would equate to Jesus having a will uninfluenced by His divinity or "knowing" the Father as well). Most (not all) who argue against "free will" do not hold this definition but rather point to a human self-centered inclination away from God. None of your examples illustrate "free-will" in terms of a libertarian freedom but rather the freedom to choose.

Apart from the work of the Spirit men will choose what is of human nature, and this will be a genuine free choice ("free will"). As God reveals Himself to man through the Spirit and in a supernatural way to those being saved, these men choose God (again, a genuine free choice..."free will"). But this is not a choice free from God's own work or influence.

The error here is that so many seem to think that if God reveals Himself to man in a way that is undeniable and therefore influences man's decision then men are deprived of a freedom to choose. This creates a false dichotomy As an example -. If I show you a painting and you are so impressed that you want to purchase that piece of artwork, have I therefore deprived you of your free will? Of course not. But at the same time, your will in this example is not uninfluenced by the painting itself.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think it depends on how you define "free will". For example, some insist that men have "free will" in terms of will that is unrestricted by human nature (in the case of your examples of a Christ-like love, this would equate to Jesus having a will uninfluenced by His divinity or "knowing" the Father as well). Most (not all) who argue against "free will" do not hold this definition but rather point to a human self-centered inclination away from God. None of your examples illustrate "free-will" in terms of a libertarian freedom but rather the freedom to choose.

Apart from the work of the Spirit men will choose what is of human nature, and this will be a genuine free choice ("free will"). As God reveals Himself to man through the Spirit and in a supernatural way to those being saved, these men choose God (again, a genuine free choice..."free will"). But this is not a choice free from God's own work or influence.

The error here is that so many seem to think that if God reveals Himself to man in a way that is undeniable and therefore influences man's decision then men are deprived of a freedom to choose. This creates a false dichotomy As an example -. If I show you a painting and you are so impressed that you want to purchase that piece of artwork, have I therefore deprived you of your free will? Of course not. But at the same time, your will in this example is not uninfluenced by the painting itself.
Apart from God's willful drawing and calling a human out into his presence, not one person will ever turn to God and freely walk toward God. A human will always hide from the presence of God. We saw this in the Garden of Eden. We see it today in unregenerate mankind. If God does not call the person by name, that person will never come to Christ.
Therefore, there is no free will in the process of reconciliation. God either makes a person alive to God or they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.
It matters not whether a person chooses a ham sandwich or a cheeseburger. This changes not the spirit of a human. God will use both the regenerate and unregenerate to fulfill and accomplish his perfect will.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Apart from God's willful drawing and calling a human out into his presence, not one person will ever turn to God and freely walk toward God. A human will always hide from the presence of God. We saw this in the Garden of Eden. We see it today in unregenerate mankind. If God does not call the person by name, that person will never come to Christ.
Therefore, there is no free will in the process of reconciliation. God either makes a person alive to God or they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.
It matters not whether a person chooses a ham sandwich or a cheeseburger. This changes not the spirit of a human. God will use both the regenerate and unregenerate to fulfill and accomplish his perfect will.
If you are saying that man has no will involved then I disagree. Here I would agree with Spurgeon's illustration of going "willingly against one's will" (that is, the old will which was changed by God's redemptive work). So we agree that apart from God drawing a person that person would never come. That said (and we may disagree here) Scripture teaches that while God chose and drew us first, this resulted in our choosing Him. We do turn to God out of our own free-will, albeit a freedom that is not uninfluenced.

I love God because He first loved me. And He loved me by sending His Son to die that I would have life and a life of spiritual abundance. I am the product of God's labor, created in Christ for good works which God has prepared beforehand that I should walk in them. And I freely choose to love God because of this redemptive work that He has accomplished in my life.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apart from God's willful drawing and calling a human out into his presence, not one person will ever turn to God and freely walk toward God. A human will always hide from the presence of God. We saw this in the Garden of Eden. We see it today in unregenerate mankind. If God does not call the person by name, that person will never come to Christ.
Therefore, there is no free will in the process of reconciliation. God either makes a person alive to God or they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.
It matters not whether a person chooses a ham sandwich or a cheeseburger. This changes not the spirit of a human. God will use both the regenerate and unregenerate to fulfill and accomplish his perfect will.

"Apart from God's willful drawing and calling a human out into his presence, not one person will ever turn to God and freely walk toward God."

No kidding that boundary is easily explained with why anyone is living and breathing right now compared to someone who does not exist who obviously cannot freely walk towards God.

Apart from God name one thing anyone can do at all.

.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is why no one takes you seriously. You make up stories and claims.
You attack character because you can't defend your theology.

You made accusation of heresy I said show us when that happened, Show us where it first shows up.

Your entire defense is based on lies and false accusations. You make up what we believe then you make up accusations with no evidence.

Debating you is an enjoyable piece of cake. :Biggrin
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Did God say yes to Satan's request?

Could Satan have touched Job without God giving him the authorization?

Utilyan, you are desperately forcing your man-made belief on the text.

Perhaps your version of God is not the God of the Bible.

A mouse can't sneeze without God's permission. That does not mean he ordains the mouse to sneeze, that is beyond stupid.

God has ordained for the entire internet to tell you that is so stupid!

So if the internet says you are an idiot, does that mean God ordains that you are an idiot!? NO IT DOES NOT.



And My version of God? like I get a pick?
What do you mean perhaps?

Here is my version. He still would be 100% efficiently better then your whiny god.

My version of God is Jabba the Hutt.

 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you are saying that man has no will involved then I disagree. Here I would agree with Spurgeon's illustration of going "willingly against one's will" (that is, the old will which was changed by God's redemptive work). So we agree that apart from God drawing a person that person would never come. That said (and we may disagree here) Scripture teaches that while God chose and drew us first, this resulted in our choosing Him. We do turn to God out of our own free-will, albeit a freedom that is not uninfluenced.

I love God because He first loved me. And He loved me by sending His Son to die that I would have life and a life of spiritual abundance. I am the product of God's labor, created in Christ for good works which God has prepared beforehand that I should walk in them. And I freely choose to love God because of this redemptive work that He has accomplished in my life.

We do have disagreement in that scripture teaches that God chose us , drew us, adopted us, made us alive completely apart from any willful choice of our own.

I agree that the result of this act of God's is a response of love and gratitude. That is effect, which results from the cause...that being God's effectual work of redemption.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Apart from God's willful drawing and calling a human out into his presence, not one person will ever turn to God and freely walk toward God."

No kidding that boundary is easily explained with why anyone is living and breathing right now compared to someone who does not exist who obviously cannot freely walk towards God.

Apart from God name one thing anyone can do at all.

.
You fall short of grasping the difference between God sustaining all that is His creation and God choosing, from out of that creation, a people unto Himself.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You attack character because you can't defend your theology.

You made accusation of heresy I said show us when that happened, Show us where it first shows up.

Your entire defense is based on lies and false accusations. You make up what we believe then you make up accusations with no evidence.

Debating you is an enjoyable piece of cake. :Biggrin
Blah, blah, blah.

Your church teaches heresy. I showed it within your own catechism. You continue with more blah, blah, blah...
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A mouse can't sneeze without God's permission. That does not mean he ordains the mouse to sneeze, that is beyond stupid.

God has ordained for the entire internet to tell you that is so stupid!

So if the internet says you are an idiot, does that mean God ordains that you are an idiot!? NO IT DOES NOT.



And My version of God? like I get a pick?
What do you mean perhaps?

Here is my version. He still would be 100% efficiently better then your whiny god.

My version of God is Jabba the Hutt.

Did God say yes to Satan's request.

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We do have disagreement in that scripture teaches that God chose us , drew us, adopted us, made us alive completely apart from any willful choice of our own.

I agree that the result of this act of God's is a response of love and gratitude. That is effect, which results from the cause...that being God's effectual work of redemption.
I believe no man is saved while yet unwilling (using Spurgeon again to say no one is saved against their will) but also that no one comes except he be drawn. Where do you believe we disagree (and what are your supporting passages)?
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe no man is saved while yet unwilling (using Spurgeon again to say no one is saved against their will) but also that no one comes except he be drawn. Where do you believe we disagree (and what are your supporting passages)?
No man would ever be saved, if his will were given precedence.

Saul/Paul was saved in spite of his will to persecute and kill Christians. God did not give Paul a choice on the road to Damascus. What we observe is the response of Paul immediately after God effectually chooses Paul.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Did God say yes to Satan's request.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

NO.

Hey is learning to read the last thing elect folks regenerate?

Read it again. Your reading comprehension is horrible.

It was GOD's IDEA to test Job. Satan did not request anything he is too slick, He twists the truth to how it is.

You see you keep making stuff up, That isn't even there! show me "Satan's request".

Did God ordain evil? No. what God did was righteous and perfect.

Everything God ordains is PERFECT and GOOD. God ordains all evil to be vanquished by good. But never has God been an architect and planned EVIL.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
NO.

Hey is learning to read the last thing elect folks regenerate?

Read it again. Your reading comprehension is horrible.

It was GOD's IDEA to test Job. Satan did not request anything he is too slick, He twists the truth to how it is.

You see you keep making stuff up, That isn't even there! show me "Satan's request".

Did God ordain evil? No. what God did was righteous and perfect.

Everything God ordains is PERFECT and GOOD. God ordains all evil to be vanquished by good. But never has God been an architect and planned EVIL.
You are adding something to the text that is not there. What does Job 1 and 2 tell us?

You refuse to be honest with the text. Such is the lot of a person who is making his god in his own image.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No man would ever be saved, if his will were given precedence.

Saul/Paul was saved in spite of his will to persecute and kill Christians. God did not give Paul a choice on the road to Damascus. What we observe is the response of Paul immediately after God effectually chooses Paul.

That is absurd Menno, because your theology claims Saul/Paul has never had a will to persecute and kill Christians to begin with.

You can't half-ways say someone has free will.


Even Ananias right there in the same chapter is basicly like......well gee Lord you think saul is a good idea?

Think about it. He thinks has to let Jesus know who saul is, basicly questioning Jesus, we see Peter do it later too, And Jesus has to ask Saul why he is being percecuted.

"calvinist" - Jesus would have never put up with anything above^ He would shove his puppet hand up his saul puppet hole and be like.....oh yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah lets go Jesus lets do this!

Please....
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are adding something to the text that is not there. What does Job 1 and 2 tell us?

You refuse to be honest with the text. Such is the lot of a person who is making his god in his own image.

You said Satan made a request. Show me that verse. Is English not your first language?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top