Does Love Require Free Will?

[wTanksley]

Point the way, Tank. Share your view on the topic.

Sure. I'm a Calvinist, and you can see my only post here up above -- I'm answering a question in which Mark, the author of the OP, asks whether a particular understanding is correct about Calvinists. I believe he was asking sincerely, and I answered him. He wasn't trying to put words in Calvinists' mouths, but rather repeating what he'd heard from some of us and asking if it's true that we believe it.

In contrast, many of the posters above on both opposing sides have nastily called names, insisted that other people believe immediate absurdities, and other hopeless debate tactics that demonstrate and bring no understanding.

Both sides can make good points, when they're trying.

I believe love requires free will; but that doesn't mean "the ability to do otherwise." I believe free will requires that the action be "up to me", that I really desire to do that action because I believe doing that action represents myself. I want to love God because loving God is what Christians do, and I am a Christian. I don't have to be forced to love God; if someone did put a gun to my head and commanded that I love God, my loving God would not cease to be free. In the eternal state, when failing to love God is impossible, it will STILL be a free choice to love God.

 

[MennoSota]

Sure. I'm a Calvinist, and you can see my only post here up above -- I'm answering a question in which Mark, the author of the OP, asks whether a particular understanding is correct about Calvinists. I believe he was asking sincerely, and I answered him. He wasn't trying to put words in Calvinists' mouths, but rather repeating what he'd heard from some of us and asking if it's true that we believe it.

In contrast, many of the posters above on both opposing sides have nastily called names, insisted that other people believe immediate absurdities, and other hopeless debate tactics that demonstrate and bring no understanding.

Both sides can make good points, when they're trying.

I believe love requires free will; but that doesn't mean "the ability to do otherwise." I believe free will requires that the action be "up to me", that I really desire to do that action because I believe doing that action represents myself. I want to love God because loving God is what Christians do, and I am a Christian. I don't have to be forced to love God; if someone did put a gun to my head and commanded that I love God, my loving God would not cease to be free. In the eternal state, when failing to love God is impossible, it will STILL be a free choice to love God.

If, you are saying that within the parameters of God's will, He grants us freedom of action, I will agree. If your comment gives license to a person acting outside of or above God's will, then I disagree. The latter would go against scripture and not fit a reformed understanding of God's election of the saints.

 

[wTanksley]

If, you are saying that within the parameters of God's will, He grants us freedom of action, I will agree. If your comment gives license to a person acting outside of or above God's will, then I disagree. The latter would go against scripture and not fit a reformed understanding of God's election of the saints.

I don't think anyone posting here would disagree with any of that. Only an open theist would claim people can act against God's will.

What I'm saying is vastly more specific. I'm saying that free will means only that I act according to who I am by nature; NOT that I have "libertarian free will" or "the power of contrary choice."

I affirm the Reformed understanding of free will as taught by people like Luther and Edwards, in other words.

That's my specific position on this topic.

And this implies, in turn, that love needs freedom -- but it does NOT need the kind of radical freedom to "not love." The specific kind of freedom it needs is that the loving actions have to come from the person doing the acts of love; NOT from someone else's will.

The theory of "libertarian free will" does not account for the eternal state, in which we will love perfectly BECAUSE we cannot do otherwise.

 

[utilyan]

Utility is desperate to paint a Holy God as a fear-based God. He cannot conceive of a God who is just and therefore justly punishes rebellious sinners. He cannot conceive a God who displays love by choosing to graciously save some while justly punishing those whom He chooses not to pardon.

Such is the faulty understanding that utility has regarding God and Love.

Somehow, utility imagines that Love can never judge and rightfully condemn sin. In his mind a loving God cannot send sinners to hell. Only those who choose hell, freely, can ever be condemned. However, utility has no biblical support for his faulty belief. Instead he desperately searches for verses out of context to use as a proof text for his twisted thoughts. In the end, he preaches works salvation as his gospel and therefore preaches no gospel at all.

Why didn't you pick the right verses up there? How come you say God is stupid? That he couldn't write obviously understandable scripture? Why do we need your help to accept the exact BACKWARDS meaning?


"Utility is desperate to paint a Holy God as a fear-based God"

That's funny. I believe God loves everyone on earth and provides the means for everyone to reach salvation.

Justice is not Revenge. The point of Justice is to bring back to order.

The laws are not for God's benefit. God is perfect, he was just fine. The entire point of the laws and punishments are for your discipline.

God doesn't have a ego to hurt like we do.


"He cannot conceive a God who displays love by choosing to graciously save some while justly punishing those whom He chooses not to pardon."

Your right I can't conceive anything more evil. Even the character of the Devil is Saint compared to the sadistic spiritual nazi you believe God to be.

Predestines folks to hell to "show off", who is he showing off to? Who does he have to prove to? childish.


Name ONE PERSON more evil then your idea of God.



Jesus Christ is the character of God.


Matthew 5

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Some folks would sell their own mother for "salvation", Just evil and selfish people

Sorry but God didn't build a coward here. If any all powerful alien showed up claiming to be God or Jesus based on acts of power we sure can count on some self proclaimed Christians to kneel, submit and kiss feet.

Not here. God didn't build a coward here. I know God because God is love, and those who don't love don't have a clue who God is even if it slapped them upside the head.

I can run circles around your idea of God and shove him on the baby stool for dinner. The saving grace of your idea of God, if he existed, is that he makes everything in the universe look better by being so horrible.


One day your going to believe what you say, but you are not gonna like it. When that happens remember God loves you, no matter what.

 

[utilyan]

If, you are saying that within the parameters of God's will, He grants us freedom of action, I will agree. If your comment gives license to a person acting outside of or above God's will, then I disagree. The latter would go against scripture and not fit a reformed understanding of God's election of the saints.

Name one person who exists outside of God willing it.

If God commands a person to not sin does that mean God doesn't want them to sin? (<--things you actually have to ask a Calvinist that you never have to ask a Christian)

 

[MennoSota]

I'm saying that free will means only that I act according to who I am by nature; NOT that I have "libertarian free will" or "the power of contrary choice."

Thanks for the clarification.

Based upon your above comment. When were dead in our trespasses and sins, our sin nature could do nothing, but run and hide from God's presence. Our nature was entirely antagonistic toward God.

Having been made alive in Christ and having been made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5) we can worship God and glorify God forever.

 

[MennoSota]

Why didn't you pick the right verses up there? How come you say God is stupid? That he couldn't write obviously understandable scripture? Why do we need your help to accept the exact BACKWARDS meaning?


"Utility is desperate to paint a Holy God as a fear-based God"

That's funny. I believe God loves everyone on earth and provides the means for everyone to reach salvation.

Justice is not Revenge. The point of Justice is to bring back to order.

The laws are not for God's benefit. God is perfect, he was just fine. The entire point of the laws and punishments are for your discipline.

God doesn't have a ego to hurt like we do.


"He cannot conceive a God who displays love by choosing to graciously save some while justly punishing those whom He chooses not to pardon."

Your right I can't conceive anything more evil. Even the character of the Devil is Saint compared to the sadistic spiritual nazi you believe God to be.

Predestines folks to hell to "show off", who is he showing off to? Who does he have to prove to? childish.


Name ONE PERSON more evil then your idea of God.



Jesus Christ is the character of God.


Matthew 5

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Some folks would sell their own mother for "salvation", Just evil and selfish people

Sorry but God didn't build a coward here. If any all powerful alien showed up claiming to be God or Jesus based on acts of power we sure can count on some self proclaimed Christians to kneel, submit and kiss feet.

Not here. God didn't build a coward here. I know God because God is love, and those who don't love don't have a clue who God is even if it slapped them upside the head.

I can run circles around your idea of God and shove him on the baby stool for dinner. The saving grace of your idea of God, if he existed, is that he makes everything in the universe look better by being so horrible.


One day your going to believe what you say, but you are not gonna like it. When that happens remember God loves you, no matter what.

1) I didn't say "God is stupid." Those are your words. Own them.

2) God hates sin. Thus he hates sinners. Thus, God does not love us unless He first pardons us of our sins.
Utilyan, does God pardon all humanity of their sins? (Please answer this straight up)

3) God says vengeance is mine. I will repay.
With regard to sin, however, justice is not revenge. Justice is making things right. It is right that God would condemn law breakers to hell.

4) Once again you add hyperbole by saying that God's justice is him showing off, because humans are predestined to their rightful judgment. You are very twisted in your thinking, utilyan. You have no biblical understanding...though you use the Bible like Satan uses the Bible.

5) You are more evil than the presentation of God in His word. I name utilyan as more evil.

6) Jesus is very God. Not the character of God. You have a small concept of Jesus.

7) Your abuse of scripture is evident in the beatitudes and your childish behavior is evident to all. Only in your twisted mind have you ever won an argument on the Baptist board. You keep coming back despite your ohfer arguments.

 

[MennoSota]

Name one person who exists outside of God willing it.

If God commands a person to not sin does that mean God doesn't want them to sin? (<--things you actually have to ask a Calvinist that you never have to ask a Christian)

If God commands the sun to be dark does that mean God doesn't want the sun to shine?

 

[utilyan]

Thanks for the clarification.

Based upon your above comment. When were dead in our trespasses and sins, our sin nature could do nothing, but run and hide from God's presence. Our nature was entirely antagonistic toward God.

Having been made alive in Christ and having been made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5) we can worship God and glorify God forever.

The Manichæans

The Manichean first introduced the total depravity heresy. Its a twisted version of the first noble truth of buddhism mixed into christianity.

In Buddhism the 1st noble truth is that all phenomenon is suffering, this of course was twisted into all is "bad" to all is "EVIL"


Augustine argued against "Sin Nature". There is nothing "NATURAL" about sin. Sin is an abomination, it is UNNATURAL.



An ORANGE is a good fruit. But if we were to corrupt it to the point nothing GOOD remains, it would cease to be an ORANGE, it would be something else.


If a human being is devoid of all that is holy and Good, It wouldn't be human at all.

Holy has references to wholey and completeness too. There is no such thing as "HOLY EVIL"


<-- where we get the word holy.




If all that is "GOOD" of a human being were gone there would cease to be a human being is the major point Augustine.

 

[utilyan]

1) I didn't say "God is stupid." Those are your words. Own them.

2) God hates sin. Thus he hates sinners. Thus, God does not love us unless He first pardons us of our sins.
Utilyan, does God pardon all humanity of their sins? (Please answer this straight up)

3) God says vengeance is mine. I will repay.
With regard to sin, however, justice is not revenge. Justice is making things right. It is right that God would condemn law breakers to hell.

4) Once again you add hyperbole by saying that God's justice is him showing off, because humans are predestined to their rightful judgment. You are very twisted in your thinking, utilyan. You have no biblical understanding...though you use the Bible like Satan uses the Bible.

5) You are more evil than the presentation of God in His word. I name utilyan as more evil.

6) Jesus is very God. Not the character of God. You have a small concept of Jesus.

7) Your abuse of scripture is evident in the beatitudes and your childish behavior is evident to all. Only in your twisted mind have you ever won an argument on the Baptist board. You keep coming back despite your ohfer arguments.

"Utilyan, does God pardon all humanity of their sins?"

Yes.

Here is the scripture:

2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.



Look we make appeals and beg Tools that are unnecessary if it could not be rejected.




1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Here we have an EXAMPLE of someone who has made God a LIAR. How does he accomplish this?

Because he doesn't believe JESUS died for HIM!


According to Calvinism this guy is TELLING THE TRUTH not a LIE!!!!


CHALLENGE: MENNO give me the name of living person other then yourself who Jesus died for, ie they are elect.

 

[MennoSota]

"Utilyan, does God pardon all humanity of their sins?"

Yes.

Here is the scripture:

2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.



Look we make appeals and beg Tools that are unnecessary if it could not be rejected.




1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Here we have an EXAMPLE of someone who has made God a LIAR. How does he accomplish this?

Because he doesn't believe JESUS died for HIM!


According to Calvinism this guy is TELLING THE TRUTH not a LIE!!!!

Thank you, utilyan. You have perfectly shown how Satan uses God's word to present a false teaching.

You are a universalist.

God, however, us not a universalist.

 

[MennoSota]

2 Corinthians 5:1-21
[1]For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.
[2]We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.
[3]For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.
[4]While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
[5]God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
[6]So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord.
[7]For we live by believing and not by seeing.
[8]Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
[9]So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.
[10]For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.
[11]Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too.
[12]Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us, so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart.
[13]If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit.
[14]Either way, Christ’s love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.
[15]He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.
[16]So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now!
[17]This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!
[18]And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him.
[19]For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.
[20]So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”
[21]For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

To whom is Paul writing. Those whom God has saved in Corinth or all Corinthians?

Your universalism is noted, utilyan.

 

[MennoSota]

The Manichæans

The Manichean first introduced the total depravity heresy. Its a twisted version of the first noble truth of buddhism mixed into christianity.

In Buddhism the 1st noble truth is that all phenomenon is suffering, this of course was twisted into all is "bad" to all is "EVIL"


Augustine argued against "Sin Nature". There is nothing "NATURAL" about sin. Sin is an abomination, it is UNNATURAL.



An ORANGE is a good fruit. But if we were to corrupt it to the point nothing GOOD remains, it would cease to be an ORANGE, it would be something else.


If a human being is devoid of all that is holy and Good, It wouldn't be human at all.

Holy has references to wholey and completeness too. There is no such thing as "HOLY EVIL"


View attachment 1587 <-- where we get the word holy.




If all that is "GOOD" of a human being were gone there would cease to be a human being is the major point Augustine.

What does the Bible say about humans who are apart from God, utilyan? Does the Bible say that all humans are good?

God says his creation is good. Does this mean that humans, bound in their rebellion and sin are good?

I just want to see how far down the heretical rabbit hole you have gone, utilyan.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If all that is "GOOD" of a human being were gone there would cease to be a human being

Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21. However, you either misunderstand, or are deliberately misrepresenting, the Doctrine of Total Depravity. It does not mean that man is a wicked as he can possibly be; it means that every facet of his being and behaviour is flawed by sin (eg. Isaiah 1:4-6), rendering him unable and unwilling to approach God savingly ( John 3:19; 1 Corinthians 2:14) or to please Him (Romans 8:8) unless and until he is born anew.

 

[utilyan]

Thank you, utilyan. You have perfectly shown how Satan uses God's word to present a false teaching.

You are a universalist.

God, however, us not a universalist.

In aim and goal, possibly?

Before the fall God was not a universalist?

The command of God is for no one to sin, that is he command no one to go to hell.

This might clear things up. There is a hell and people go there.

I don't believe God wanted them to go there this is why SIN is actually a SIN.


You can't have God hooked up with a LIE, That is him wanting you to sin after stating he doesn't want you to sin.

 

[utilyan]

Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21. However, you either misunderstand, or are deliberately misrepresenting, the Doctrine of Total Depravity. It does not mean that man is a wicked as he can possibly be; it means that every facet of his being and behaviour is flawed by sin (eg. Isaiah 1:4-6), rendering him unable and unwilling to approach God savingly ( John 3:19; 1 Corinthians 2:14) or to please Him (Romans 8:8) unless and until he is born anew.

"unable and unwilling to approach God" = wicked as he can possibly be

You can't top that. Name one "GOOD" act that isn't for God, ill argue it is evil.

It has to be GOD GIVEN to be natural. Sin is UNnatural. Sin is not natural at all.

Genesis is pretty clear of the consequences of Adam and Eve giving a big list. The absolute loss and capacity to approach God would have made all the other consequences look like Disneyland. Not a tweet given.



Acts 17

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,


If Paul or God for that matter believed groping/seeking for God were an impossibility he would not push for it,

In fact I believe under your doctrine seeking God is impossible because he regenerates first. In other words it is impossible for the "elect" to seek God.

 

[MennoSota]

In aim and goal, possibly?

Before the fall God was not a universalist?

The command of God is for no one to sin, that is he command no one to go to hell.

This might clear things up. There is a hell and people go there.

I don't believe God wanted them to go there this is why SIN is actually a SIN.


You can't have God hooked up with a LIE, That is him wanting you to sin after stating he doesn't want you to sin.

No one has ever made the claim you are making. Yet, you insist on saying that God wanted humans to sin.
Perhaps it's because you struggle with God ordaining.
Recall when Satan went to God and asked to bring havoc on Job. God said yes. God ordained that Job go through great suffering.

Indeed, utilyan, you don't believe.

You don't believe in a Sovereign God who ordains both good and bad to accomplish His perfect and good will.

 

[MennoSota]

Name one "GOOD" act that isn't for God, ill argue it is evil.

No act of unregenerate man is good.

God may use wicked humans to accomplish His good will, but unregenerate man cannot generate good on their own.

 

[utilyan]

What does the Bible say about humans who are apart from God, utilyan? Does the Bible say that all humans are good?

God says his creation is good. Does this mean that humans, bound in their rebellion and sin are good?

I just want to see how far down the heretical rabbit hole you have gone, utilyan.

The qualifying factor, lowest common denominator is that Man is made in the Image of God. If what you got there does not contain the Image of God, I would argue that is not a Man at all.

I believe the Image of God has higher octane GOOD and uneasily pushed over by any evil.

If you cut a man off from God he is not a man. The standard proof of what a man is, is Jesus Christ.

I believe every man in the world is loved by God and has the capacity to love God.

Jesus Christ makes it obvious that Man's FIRST and FOREMOST NATURE is in unity of the holy spirit.



You want to start under the premise that the standard example of a man is Adam. Jesus Christ is the standard human being.


If Sin means doing what you are SUPPOSE TO BE doing, you'd have a great case.

All human beings ARE SUPPOSE TO BE and COMMANDED BY GOD to be GOOD.

God wants all human beings to be GOOD.


If God wanted someone to be evil he wouldn't call what they do SIN, Its precisely a SIN because they are doing what HE DOES NOT WANT.

 

[MennoSota]

You want to start under the premise that the standard example of a man is Adam. Jesus Christ is the standard human being.

Are you saying that all humans are born sinless like Jesus rather than born in sin due to Adam's sin?