Does Love Require Free Will?

[utilyan]

No one has ever made the claim you are making. Yet, you insist on saying that God wanted humans to sin.
Perhaps it's because you struggle with God ordaining.
Recall when Satan went to God and asked to bring havoc on Job. God said yes. God ordained that Job go through great suffering.

Indeed, utilyan, you don't believe.

You don't believe in a Sovereign God who ordains both good and bad to accomplish His perfect and good will.

God never does Evil.

I think you mixing up God allowing evil to happen and his ability to bring about a great good even from evil circumstances.

Even simpler example the Cross. Was it a sin an act of evil to kill Jesus? When Jesus asked for forgiveness of those doing him wrong, are you saying GOD killed Jesus?

 

[MennoSota]

God never does Evil.

I think you mixing up God allowing evil to happen and his ability to bring about a great good even from evil circumstances.

Even simpler example the Cross. Was it a sin an act of evil to kill Jesus? When Jesus asked for forgiveness of those doing him wrong, are you saying GOD killed Jesus?

That's not what I have said.

Did God ordain and give approval for Satan to do to Job what Satan did?

Would you dare to tell God that His approval of Satan's request is evil?
Second, whose will was it that Jesus should be killed as a sacrifice for sin? What did Jesus pray? "Not my will, but thine be done."
Would you dare tell God His will to kill Jesus was evil?

 

[utilyan]

Are you saying that all humans are born sinless like Jesus rather than born in sin due to Adam's sin?

No. Jesus Christ is savior.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

 

[utilyan]

That's not what I have said.

Did God ordain and give approval for Satan to do to Job what Satan did?

Would you dare to tell God that His approval of Satan's request is evil?
Second, whose will was it that Jesus should be killed as a sacrifice for sin? What did Jesus pray? "Not my will, but thine be done."
Would you dare tell God His will to kill Jesus was evil?

Just because God allows doesn't mean he approves.

Example:
If God ordained me to post against you why complain about my post?

You dare to tell God his will for my internet post was evil?

God could have me drop dead right now. Instead wants me to set you straight.

Your logic fails^

God did not kill Jesus Christ.


God never does any Evil. God never exercises a license to do evil either. God is not evil ever.

The things God says and do are right because they are right perfectly exampled for even you to follow. Rather then they are right because of legalism, mark or label.



1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.



The next time you sin, its not because God wanted you to sin, its not because you lacked some capacity.

The next time you sin It is absolutely, only and ALL your fault. No excuses.

 

[MennoSota]

No. Jesus Christ is savior.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

Don't give me a link to your churches catechism. Answer the question.

Are you saying that all humans are born sinless like Jesus rather than born in sin due to Adam's sin?

Jesus is the Messiah.

Are humans born in the line of Adam or the line of Jesus?

Are humans born as sinners?

 

[utilyan]

Looks like God ordained me to challenge again.

1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Here we have an EXAMPLE of someone who has made God a LIAR. How does he accomplish this?

Because he doesn't believe JESUS died for HIM!


According to Calvinism this guy is TELLING THE TRUTH not a LIE!!!!


CHALLENGE: MENNO give me the name of living person other then yourself who Jesus died for, ie they are elect.

 

[MennoSota]

Here's a heresy of the Church at Rome.

Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

A completely unsubstantiated claim by Rome.

 

[MennoSota]

Looks like God ordained me to challenge again.

1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Here we have an EXAMPLE of someone who has made God a LIAR. How does he accomplish this?

Because he doesn't believe JESUS died for HIM!


According to Calvinism this guy is TELLING THE TRUTH not a LIE!!!!


CHALLENGE: MENNO give me the name of living person other then yourself who Jesus died for, ie they are elect.

All humans whom God has chosen. This would be the Apostles and those whom they named as being in Christ.

I let God decide whom He has written down in the Lambs book of life.

Does it bother you that God has these names written down?

 

[MennoSota]

Just because God allows doesn't mean he approves.

Example:
If God ordained me to post against you why complain about my post?

You dare to tell God his will for my internet post was evil?

God could have me drop dead right now. Instead wants me to set you straight.

Your logic fails^

God did not kill Jesus Christ.


God never does any Evil. God never exercises a license to do evil either. God is not evil ever.

The things God says and do are right because they are right perfectly exampled for even you to follow. Rather then they are right because of legalism, mark or label.



1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.



The next time you sin, its not because God wanted you to sin, its not because you lacked some capacity.

The next time you sin It is absolutely, only and ALL your fault. No excuses.

God said "Yes" to Satan's request regarding Job.
God said "Yes" to Jesus death on the cross.

Do you understand how the orders of the Sovereign God work? What don't you grasp about God being Sovereign?

 

[utilyan]

Don't give me a link to your churches catechism. Answer the question.

Are you saying that all humans are born sinless like Jesus rather than born in sin due to Adam's sin?

Jesus is the Messiah.

Are humans born in the line of Adam or the line of Jesus?

Are humans born as sinners?

Of course. I believe what the link says. Its the best explanation.

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290


Hey our teaching been around 2000 years since before the fist thing you ever did anything right in your diapers.

Are you going to keep trying to rewrite what I believe because you can't debate against what I'm plainly saying.

Come on now.

 

[MennoSota]

Of course. I believe what the link says. Its the best explanation.

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290


Hey our teaching been around 2000 years since before the fist thing you ever did anything right in your diapers.

Are you going to keep trying to rewrite what I believe because you can't debate against what I'm plainly saying.

Come on now.

Your heresy has been around for a long time. So has Satan. Length of time is no argument for truth, utilyan.

 

[MennoSota]

Utilyan,

Are humans born in the line of Adam or the line of Jesus?

Are humans born as sinners?

 

[utilyan]

Christians know who Christians are.

The whole idea its some mystery is a nice idea, but show scripture backing up that idea.

1 John 3

. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.



John 13

34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[utilyan]

God said "Yes" to Satan's request regarding Job.
God said "Yes" to Jesus death on the cross.

Do you understand how the orders of the Sovereign God work? What don't you grasp about God being Sovereign?

Allow and Approve are two different concepts. You believe God approves abuse and murder of children?

God at the blink of an eye can have all evil eradicated and everyone in heaven by force. The reason he doesn't do this is because he is trying to educate you. That's why he allows you to make mistakes. God does not make mistakes.


Jesus Christ follows the principle : 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

 

[utilyan]

Your heresy has been around for a long time. So has Satan. Length of time is no argument for truth, utilyan.

I don't have to make up what you believe for anyone to know its bad. How about showing a date when this heresy of Catholics first appeared, maybe you got some early church fathers condemning it as they do all heresies.

Or did you just make it all up?

 

[MennoSota]

Allow and Approve are two different concepts. You believe God approves abuse and murder of children?

God at the blink of an eye can have all evil eradicated and everyone in heaven by force. The reason he doesn't do this is because he is trying to educate you. That's why he allows you to make mistakes. God does not make mistakes.


Jesus Christ follows the principle : 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

Again, what did God tell Satan regarding Job?

What was God the Father's will regarding Jesus dying on the cross.

You are running away from the obvious and denying what God ordained.

 

[MennoSota]

Job 1:6-12
[6]One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
[7]“Where have you come from?” the lord asked Satan.Satan answered the lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”
[8]Then the lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”
[9]Satan replied to the lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God.
[10]You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
[11]But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
[12]“All right, you may test him,” the lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the lord’s presence.

Job 2:1-6
[1]One day the members of the heavenly court came again to present themselves before the lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
[2]“Where have you come from?” the lord asked Satan.Satan answered the lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”
[3]Then the lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause.”
[4]Satan replied to the lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life.
[5]But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
[6]“All right, do with him as you please,” the lord said to Satan. “But spare his life.”

 

[MennoSota]

I don't have to make up what you believe for anyone to know its bad. How about showing a date when this heresy of Catholics first appeared, maybe you got some early church fathers condemning it as they do all heresies.

Or did you just make it all up?

You posted the heresy in your catechism and I pasted the specific heresy.
You can figure out the date yourself. The time frame is irrelevant to the heresy provided by your church.

 

[utilyan]

You posted the heresy in your catechism and I pasted the specific heresy.
You can figure out the date yourself. The time frame is irrelevant to the heresy provided by your church.

You admit to lie. Thanks.

Date or it didn't happen.


There is no one saying heresy! because Catholics were the only thing around.

 

[utilyan]

Again, what did God tell Satan regarding Job?

What was God the Father's will regarding Jesus dying on the cross.

You are running away from the obvious and denying what God ordained.

Evil and Sin is not Holy therefore not ordained.

God permits evil.

I already showed you scripture, God will not cause one to sin.

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


You keep trying to blame God, sorry, when you sin it is your fault not God's.