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Featured Calvinism and the SBC (a 2013 discussion between Hankings and Mohler)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jun 29, 2017.

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  1. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Along similar lines, this book from Presbyterian pastor Ben Patterson adresses our rigid theological concepts of God and our practical experiences with Him which put our concepts in a bind

    Deepening Your Conversation with God: Learning to Love to Pray (Pastor's Soul): Ben Patterson: 9780764223518: Amazon.com: Books
     
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, you give yourself way too much credit for what you might do. You come across as prideful and denigrating of others you disagree with. Feel free to leave.
     
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    .

    Then again......what if that is exactly the situation?
    When that comment is offered it many times is quite accurate, Moreso with the rank and file.
    Is it okay if that is the case to make the observation and declare it...without being rude or arrogant.?
    What if that is the exact condition.;)

    or perhaps he is defending those with a lack of diligence in their study.?

    There are scholarly people who are flaming apostates like Shelby Spong.:Cautious

    I have been in both kinds of church in most every state....night and day difference that is mostly apparent without much investigation.:(
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Revmitchell,

    just read your own posts and you will see many examples.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    where in Georgia are you, I will find you one or two
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    SheepWhisperer,

    Most have it wrong? but you understand it?

    .
    Actually no...romans 8:7

    ,

    man is in control, but God is an interested spectator?



    This was not an "invitation, but a command to a typically redeemed people.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    wrong...the SBC started with Calvinists...
     
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  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I have been perusing this thread, but was going to sit out commenting until now.

    Can you provide examples of this "dangerous precision" you mention?
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are instances where a lack of knowledge indicates a lack of study, and perhaps even a failure on the part of the church to rely on indoctrination without understanding, or worse yet, to ignore doctrine all together. I grant this may be true in some cases.

    But insofar as the issue of Calvinism and non-Calvinism as discussed here goes, this is not the case. I say this for several reasons. First, as @JamesL pointed out, this issue does not hinge on Scripture itself but on philosophy and that applied to interpretation. We need to keep in mind that the Doctrines of Grace, or the Five Points of Calvinism, as Calvinism itself is not a complete soteriology but rather a response to an erroneous view of predestination. It is an interpretation of Scripture combined with a reasoning out of the workings of God not specifically revealed in Scripture to focus on a specific challenge. Which brings me to my second point. If we hold Calvinism as if it were Scripture itself then we either elevate man to the level of God or we view Scripture as less complete than SBC doctrine would allow. I find neither acceptable. But this takes us to my third point. If we do believe that Scripture is deficient and man must rely on a divine special revelation to fill in the blanks, then we are back at a gnostic type of faith – that is a hidden knowledge as a mark of maturity with God revealing knowledge exponentially as the convert grows.

    And this would be an unbiblical view of Christian maturity. Scripture defines the mark of maturity as a Christ-likeness, not an accumulation of knowledge. And an Arminian who loves like Christ loved is as about as mature as any Calvinist could hope to become.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The early leadership was Calvinistic. Both Johnson and Howell (the first two presidents of the Convention) were Calvinists (this can be seen clearly with Howell in his letters against the hyper-Calvinistic anti-missions movement). If I remember correctly, J.R. Graves was a non-Calvinist (he was anti-Calvinist because of his Landmarkism but he also based election on God seeing "end to end").

    This is why I find the anti and hyper Calvinists so alarming. "Traditional" seems to mean denying the Calvinistic SBC churches a voice (Hankins letter and the push from the Traditionalist side was to redefine the statement of faith in such a way that would exclude Calvinism).
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes.

    We have Calvinists who hold a type of theology that fills in the blanks to what Scripture has left unanswered, sometimes to the extent of denying Scripture itself. Here are a couple of examples:

    There are some who will tell you that for three hours on the Cross God abandoned Jesus by withdrawing His actual presence in such a way that Jesus experienced what the lost will experience at Judgment. Not only can this be refuted simply by Scripture, but such a detailed explanation is nowhere to be found in Scripture itself.

    Some have narrowed down their theories to the point that they deny God can actually forgive man (God must exercise wrath on each sinful act, regardless as to where that wrath falls). This is a skewed view of Penal Substitution, but it is also an error that often creeps into Calvinistic circles.

    Another example is the anti-missions movement. This was something I mentioned that Howell fought early in his ministry at the SBC. These Calvinists rejected active evangelism because one could find themselves witnessing to a non-elect person, urging them to believe in opposition to God's will. Or consider Daniel Parker's two seed theology (as an extreme view).

    As I say this, please keep in mind that I am Calvinistic and I do believe in Penal Substitution. But I also believe that there are those who hold right views wrongly.
     
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  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That's a minority view that some Arminians hold to, so it is not an exclusive Calvinist error.

    I am not aware of any Calvinists, Presbyterian or Baptist, who hold this view.

    Hyper Calvinism is difficult to quantify, since there is no agreed upon dictionary definition. John Gill is often criticized as being a Hyper Calvinist, but there is little proof to go on. I do know of Calvinist churches that do not embrace the Fundamentalist brand of evangelism that permeates most Baptist churches. I am acquainted with some Baptist (and Presbyterian) churches that believe the highest form of evangelism is preaching the Gospel. They do not believe that the Gospel should only be preached to the Elect, but you will seldom find them doing street meetings or handing out tracts. I have yet to come across a church that actually believes they should only preach the Gospel to the Elect. In fact, I am convinced that accusation is often a boogeyman charge against Calvinist churches. That said, some Calvinists do not have a high sense of urgency when it comes to personal evangelism, but is that really a Calvinist problem or a general Christian problem?
     
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  14. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    He has said almost as much plainly.
    I don't agree with the Calvinist's conclusions, but I think there is no warrant for saying we should be removing every Calvinist from entities supported by CF, or demanding that Traditionalists be represented proportionately different than they are now on seminary staffs.
     
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  15. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    He did say they're getting their rear ends handed to them because they're not willing to do the work necessary to do deep thinking.

    But honestly, what I've seen is that almost all the work isn't really work at all. I told him people who smoke pot are some of the deepest thinkers I've met

    And they're not working. They're lighting a joint and getting dizzy . And pondering.
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The point I am making is all churches are struggling. Some are struggling more than others in other parts of the nation, but Christianity is growing everywhere but here in America.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Even some of the UB's, and most of the ORB's, don't seem to hold to anything other than the 'P'. They believe babies are born innocent. :rolleyes:
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    All of what I am speaking of can be applied to other theologies as well. Calvinism lacks the vagueness that others have within the SBC and lends itself more (if abused) to denying truths based on the perciseness of what it affirms. Arminianism could present the same issue, but we are dealing with SBC theology (which excludes Arminianism). The non-Calvinists (SBC) seem to hold, as a whole, a less precise doctrine in opposition to the points of disagreement.
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And that is, I believe, a problem within the SBC. I recently watched one of Leighton Flower's interviews and he said the exact same thing - no one wants to remove Calvinists from the SBC, but at the same time the complaint is the Convention's use of language that would include Calvinists over the exclusive language of unlimited atonement. It's like me saying I'm not a racist as I hang a "whites only" sign in my shop window.

    The problem is that we have on one side a group who makes too much with too little Scripture and another group that makes too little with so much Scripture. The majority are in the middle but they are not so loud.
     
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  20. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    Founders (Nettles) recently did some posts that is about the historic Calvinistic roots of the SBC: Founders Ministries
     
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