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Featured "predestinated"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Jul 26, 2017.

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  1. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    "predestinated" to what?
    Ephesians 1
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Interestingly, we don't find any instance in the King James Bible where any individual was "predestinated". It's always referred to (*in the King James) with plural pronouns and it never says "predestinated" to "salvation": Not one time. It's talking about the "destiny" of God's children is to be full fledged, sanctified, sinless, pure "children" of God and this is imminent because God Almighty designed it that way. If you, as an individual, get saved, God will mold you and make you, even chastise you, but he will conform you to the image of Christ and adopt you as one of his children because that is the "destiny" of children of God. It has nothing to do with picking out who will be saved.

    * In the King James, the words "you", "ye" and "your" are always plural pronouns: they address a group, just like "us, we and them" do. On the other hand "thou" "thee" and "thine" are singular. If anyone finds a thou thee or thine referring to "predestinate" let me know.
     
    #1 SheepWhisperer, Jul 26, 2017
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The epitome of Romans 1:23. :(
     
    #2 SovereignGrace, Jul 26, 2017
  3. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Actually no.
    God's greatest glory concerns His boundless love. He IS love, the Bible says. A false god who would create men, purposely giving them no way to be saved from an eternity in Hell isn't the God of the Bible: That man-made god has limited love and is selfish like corruptible man. The real God of the Bible WILL banish people to Hell but it will be because THEY rejected his matchless love.
     
    #3 SheepWhisperer, Jul 26, 2017
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  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :rolleyes: So 'redemption' and 'forgiveness' have nothing to do with salvation? But how many times does the word 'predestinate' (Gk. proorizo) appear in the KJV Bible for you to make these authoritative statements? 30 times? Nope. 20 times? Not that either. Surely it must be 10 times? Still not close. It's actually four times and in only two places, Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. Lets have a look at Romans 8:28-30.

    'And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose..........' So our calling is actually nothing to do with us, but is based upon the purpose of God.

    '.......For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [KJV 'predestinated'] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn of many brethren........' To 'foreknow' means more than merely to know beforehand; it is that wonderful Biblical usage of the word 'know' meaning to know in love. 'In love having predestined us' (Ephesians 1:4-5, slight change in punctuation). Those God has loved with an everlasting love (Jeremiah 31:3) He has predestined........to what?

    '.........Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.' We are predestined (predestinated) for eternal glory with God. Now tell me that's not salvation.
    And who exactly is going to do that for you?
    And how does one become a child of God? How did you become a child of your parents? They begat you. It had nothing to do with you. You had no choice in the matter. So it is with God.

    'Praise be to the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy [nothing to do with us] has begotten us again to a living hope.....' (1 Peter 1:3). He has begotten us. We have not begotten ourselves (as if we could :Roflmao ).
    It has everything to do with God's gracious election. :)
     
    #4 Martin Marprelate, Jul 26, 2017
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  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Do not, under any circumstances, misrepresent the views of those with whom you disagree. If you cannot discuss the issue honestly, step off.
     
    #5 TCassidy, Jul 26, 2017
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  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "Honesty"

    Does God desire or want you to sin?

    I guess you will never sin again.

    Or is God too weak to get his own desire?
     
    #6 utilyan, Jul 26, 2017
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God has elected more than one person to be saved from their sins.
    That is why it is plural.
    Don't hurt yourself trying to think of more ways to oppose the truth.
    Individuals are formed into the household of God. Individuals are living stones,one stone upon another....members in particular.
     
    #7 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2017
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  8. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    How does one respond to this? Has this guy ever read the bible? In the Greek New Testament the word "Predestined" is found 9 times, it's meaning is "Destiny, predetermined", the reason you don't see in KJV is that they spoke differently then and it was translated from the Vulgate, not Majority text.

    You need to learn to read, I don't mean that rudely, but there is a way to read the bible, what is Paul saying here? He is saying that before the foundation of the world, we were Predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, I hope you're not thinking one can be conformed to His image and be unsaved?

    WHY IS EVERYONE APOLOGIZING FOR GOD? GOD HAS SAID HE HAS MERCY ON SOME WHO DESERVE HELL, OTHERS HE HARDENS, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? GOD SAYS IF YOU'RE RICH HE DID IT, POOR HE DID IT, OPEN HEART HE DID IT, CLOSED HEART HE DID IT, THERE IS NOTHING THAT PASSES HIS SOVEREIGNTY, PUT AWAY YOUR TRADITIONS AND READ HIS WORD IN FAITH AND YOU'LL SEE IT, THIS IS THE WORST EXEGESIS OF EPH 1 I'VE EVER SEEN, AND I'VE SEEN ARMINIAN ATTEMPTS TO CLIMB OVER IT, THEY DON'T, THEY ADMIT IT'S WHAT IT SAYS IT IS, THAT'S WHY THIS POSTER IS NOT EVEN ARMINIAN, HE'S PELAGIAN. WE LIVE IN A GODLESS, BIBLICALLY IGNORANT COUNTRY
     
    #8 Calv1, Jul 31, 2017
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  9. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Pelagian? Let's see........
    "Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid". Pelagianism - Wikipedia
    Nope, Wrong.
    I believe that ALL are born sinners on their way to Hell and that a person can only choose Christ WHILE the Holy Spirit deals with his heart about #1 Sin #2 Righteousness, and #3 Judgment. You don't just "decide" one day to become a Christian but you DO have to accept or reject the wooing of the Holy Ghost sir. That IS biblical. Sorry, I'm not "pelagian"
     
    #9 SheepWhisperer, Jul 31, 2017
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What you have described is text book semi-pelagianism.

    Semipelagianism was developed as a compromise between Pelagianism and the teaching of ECFs.

    Semipelagianism makes a distinction between the beginning of faith and the increase of faith. Semipelagianism teaches that growing in faith is the work of God, while the beginning of faith is an act of free will

    Semipelagianism was adjudged to be heresy by the Western Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Aug 1, 2017
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Also is the theology many churches and persons hold with today in Christianity!
     
    #11 Yeshua1, Aug 1, 2017
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That chap Semipelagius has got a lot to answer for.
    So's that other fellow, Hypercalvin. :Laugh
     
    #12 Martin Marprelate, Aug 11, 2017
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  13. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Yep, the first guy hauled truckloads of his wares and the other was addicted to Java. bad guys.
     
    #13 SheepWhisperer, Aug 11, 2017
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  14. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Bro. Cassidy, with the above quote, you just answered a post in which I said this.....

    If that isn't a work of God I don't know what is. Sir, when a man truly believes the Word of God, the Holy Ghost comes IN to his heart instantly and makes him a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things are become new. If that ain't a work of God I don't know what is!
    Someone asked me the question a couple days ago to this effect" "why did I believe and others not"(forgive me if I quoted it wrong), to which I replied: "believing on Jesus for mercy to escape the flames of Hell is a totally selfish act" There's no merit whatsoever in falling at someone's feet, so to speak, for mercy. None. But that's how God wants it. Come as a little child, the Bible says. I'm sorry I'm not a SemiPelagian either, maybe it's something else?
     
    #14 SheepWhisperer, Aug 11, 2017
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    As soon as you say....when a man believes in his heart,then the Holy Spirit comes in.....you are in error and all you say afterward is built on sand...
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Aug 12, 2017
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  16. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    John 3:2-8 "......born of the Spirit."

    John 5:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


    Romans 8:9     But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



    Bro. when I heard the word and believed on Him, I had everlasting life, just like John 5:24 says, I was "born of the Spirit" Just like John 3:2-8 says, I was "one of His" at that very instant because the Spirit of God indwelled me just like it says in Romans 8:9. All three refer to the same thing.

     
    #16 SheepWhisperer, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes but the point is you cannot believe unless the spirit of God enabled you to
     
    #17 Iconoclast, Aug 12, 2017
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Always need to go all the way back to answer how the spiritual dead can now will themselves to accept Jesus.
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Aug 12, 2017
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Isn't it funny that those who had no say so in their natural birth... Think that scripture tells them they have a say so in their spiritual one... I have a question for you... I have a profoundly deaf son, he can't hear squat, yet he believes in God... I didn't teach him, where did he get it?... Brother Glen:)
     
    #19 tyndale1946, Aug 12, 2017
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  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    So a man believes and then the Spirit of God comes into him? It is with the heart man believes and then is saved. Now, which heart does this happen in?

    The one that hates Him, that is hard as a stone, that is wicked and beyond cure? Jeremiah 17:9

    Or is it the one that God gives him at regeneration? Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26
     
    #20 SovereignGrace, Aug 12, 2017
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