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Arminianism and Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Jul 25, 2017.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    To compare faith in a chair with faith in God is utter foolishness.
     
    #121 SovereignGrace, Aug 2, 2017
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We do not choose the things in which we truly believe but rather we believe those things that have been evidenced to us as true.

    You did not choose to believe that a chair would hold you up because someone explained the structural design of a chair. You were brought up seeing people sitting in chairs and sitting in them yourself - probably from earliest memory. It was experiential - something that was proven true - NOT some thing that you decided to believe.
     
    #122 JonC, Aug 2, 2017
  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Calvinism vs non Calvinism really boils down to what God's permissive will is.
     
    #123 Reynolds, Aug 2, 2017
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It is rather simple. God's permissive will is that which He permits and God's decretal will is that which He decrees.

    His permissive will is allowing a person to make a choice.

    His decretal will is Him making the choice on your behalf.
     
    #124 TCassidy, Aug 2, 2017
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  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Yep, that's pretty simple. It only becomes complicated when we attempt to determine which is being exercised.
     
    #125 Reynolds, Aug 2, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Why?
     
    #126 TCassidy, Aug 2, 2017
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  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    There is never an obligation to save rebels and criminals from their just punishment.
    Utilyan, you act as though humans are sweet, cuddly teddy bears that are just too cute to have ever done anything evil. Do you have any biblical support for such a view of the human condition?
     
    #127 MennoSota, Aug 2, 2017
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  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Your narrative makes God out to be a failed Savior who, although he paid for all sins, is incapable of actually saving them all because he sits on his hands as humans make the choice between whether they will choose God or not. In your narrative God is a passive incapacitated being whose will is overruled by the human will.
     
    #128 MennoSota, Aug 2, 2017
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    A distinction without a difference, however I never said any of that nor intended it. Also, its not necessary to delineate that.
     
    #129 Revmitchell, Aug 3, 2017
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Apparently you are good at making claims unsubstatniated. How about delineating your reason for your statement.
     
    #130 Revmitchell, Aug 3, 2017
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is a distinction but not one without a difference. You have presented belief as a choice and I have presented it as something completely apart from human decision. This is a very big difference, and it is one that speaks directly to how people are divided over this issue.

    Saying it is a "distinction without a difference" glosses over the very real difference rather than addressing the issue. The way this difference manifests itself is that I believe God reveals Himself to those who are saved in such a way that they believe. Perhaps the extent to which God reveals Himself is the same, and the difference resides in those who ultimately reject God (I don't think this the case, but it is very possible). Either way it is not a choice - we believe what has been demonstrated to us as true. Everything else is opinion.
     
    #131 JonC, Aug 3, 2017
  12. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    No sir, God is not "impotent". He is Almighty, TCassidy, and He doesn't want to have to put any human being in Hell but wants all to repent. Tell me, How does......."wants all to repent", jive with your "only chooses certain ones to be saved"?
     
    #132 SheepWhisperer, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It's not.
     
    #133 Revmitchell, Aug 3, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    See. It is a difference with a distinction.
     
    #134 JonC, Aug 3, 2017
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Your original post did not read that way. There is nothing in scripture that there are different kinds of faith. The worship of faith has reached ridiculous heights. What makes faith so important is what we place our faith in, not faith itself.
     
    #135 Revmitchell, Aug 3, 2017
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  16. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Oh, no sir. That isn't it at all. He alone holds the consequences of our choices.

    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
    #136 SheepWhisperer, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My apology. I meant for my original post to read that we do not choose what we truly believe.

    What I mean is that Scripture presents us with two kinds of faith - as James notes in his epistle, there is a faith that is useless and a faith that is not. When we choose to believe in something the basis for that belief is always our choice (we can choose to abandon it later, or we can choose to keep it....but it does not change us because it is a reflection of us). But when we believe something because that thing has been revealed to us as truth then it changes us.

    For example, I did not choose to believe that a capacitor could hold a painful charge even with the power off. I did not, in fact, believe it because I've touched many without ever getting shocked. BUT one day I got the daylight shocked out of me from a capacitor sitting on my work bench. Could I still deny the possibility of a capacitor holding a charge? No, of course not. And I could not but believe. No choice involved. And it changed the way I work on these units.
     
    #137 JonC, Aug 3, 2017
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I think you are missing the language used in James. James was not comparing two different types of faith. He was showing that those who claim to have faith but show no evidence of it, have no real faith. True faith always produces evidence.
     
    #138 Revmitchell, Aug 3, 2017
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  19. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Good illustration.
    If someone had already told you JonC, "capacitors can hold a charge and can shock you", and you took their word for it with proper precautions, that would be "faith". You chose to take them at their word, believing what they said.

    God has not appeared to you in physical form, nor have you arrived in Heaven yet. So that "capacitor" has not discharged yet. But if you got saved, you took God at his Word as well. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" the Bible says.
     
    #139 SheepWhisperer, Aug 3, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the real question is what is the origen of saving faith, from God Himself, or somehow produced by those who are dead in their own sin natures?
     
    #140 Yeshua1, Aug 3, 2017
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