Arminianism and Calvinism

[SovereignGrace]

No, no it doesn't. We can choose to have faith in what ever we want. Once evidence is provided to us that gives us confidence in something. I have faith in the chair in which I sit. God extends grace by the preaching of the gospel. Everyone has the ability to believe and understand Romans 1:19.

To compare faith in a chair with faith in God is utter foolishness.

 

[JonC]

No, no it doesn't. We can choose to have faith in what ever we want. Once evidence is provided to us that gives us confidence in something. I have faith in the chair in which I sit. God extends grace by the preaching of the gospel. Everyone has the ability to believe and understand Romans 1:19.

We do not choose the things in which we truly believe but rather we believe those things that have been evidenced to us as true.

You did not choose to believe that a chair would hold you up because someone explained the structural design of a chair. You were brought up seeing people sitting in chairs and sitting in them yourself - probably from earliest memory. It was experiential - something that was proven true - NOT some thing that you decided to believe.

 

[Reynolds]

God's permissive will allowed them to rebel.

God's permissive will allows them to rebel.

God's permissive will allows rebellion.

This all seems rather self-evident, doesn't it?

In the first verse you quote, if God decreed they would gather, they would gather.

In the second verse you quote, if God decreed they would not perish, they would not perish.

In the third verse you quote, if God decreed they would come, they would come.

Unless you do not believe in the Omnipotence of God. Do you?

Calvinism vs non Calvinism really boils down to what God's permissive will is.

 

[TCassidy]

Calvinism vs non Calvinism really boils down to what God's permissive will is.

It is rather simple. God's permissive will is that which He permits and God's decretal will is that which He decrees.

His permissive will is allowing a person to make a choice.

His decretal will is Him making the choice on your behalf.

 

[Reynolds]

It is rather simple. God's permissive will is that which He permits and God's decretal will is that which He decrees.

His permissive will is allowing a person to make a choice.

His decretal will is Him making the choice on your behalf.

Yep, that's pretty simple. It only becomes complicated when we attempt to determine which is being exercised.

 

[TCassidy]

Yep, that's pretty simple. It only becomes complicated when we attempt to determine which is being exercised.

Why?

 

[MennoSota]

So if there is three children one is yours. Guy saves one and not yours because he is a criminal, You call him a real hero.

But if another man saves all three CHILDREN MIND YOU, Including YOURS, you would call him an idiot?

You don't have a clue on how to be christian. You only love those who love you. Jesus taught that is WORTHLESS.

There is never an obligation to save rebels and criminals from their just punishment.
Utilyan, you act as though humans are sweet, cuddly teddy bears that are just too cute to have ever done anything evil. Do you have any biblical support for such a view of the human condition?

 

[MennoSota]

Problem with that is: nobody "killed" the Owner's Son. he laid down His life "of Himself" the Bible says.

Here's the deal:
We are all born sinners. True, God is all powerful and He can decide to kill us all like ants if he wants. But thankfully God is not like that. What He CHOSE to do, was to offer the life of His only begotten son as the sacrifice for all sinners. Jesus' blood was sufficient for every sin and every sinner. His power, his knowledge, his love and His salvation is not limited. So to keep you from going to Hell, all He asks is that you believe on His Son as the propitiation for your sins. "ONLY believe" the Bible says. But wait!! Is that weak? No sir. If you refuse His Son, He will cast you into the Lake of Fire for all eternity for refusing His boundless love and Grace. Your fault, your choice.

On the other hand, if someone says that the God of the Bible predetermined only certain ones for Hell, yeah that would be His prerogative IF....IF God wanted to. But that is not the character and intent of the God of the Bible. That would be twisting His Holy Word into something it doesn't say.

Your narrative makes God out to be a failed Savior who, although he paid for all sins, is incapable of actually saving them all because he sits on his hands as humans make the choice between whether they will choose God or not. In your narrative God is a passive incapacitated being whose will is overruled by the human will.

 

[Revmitchell]

We do not choose the things in which we truly believe but rather we believe those things that have been evidenced to us as true.

You did not choose to believe that a chair would hold you up because someone explained the structural design of a chair. You were brought up seeing people sitting in chairs and sitting in them yourself - probably from earliest memory. It was experiential - something that was proven true - NOT some thing that you decided to believe.

A distinction without a difference, however I never said any of that nor intended it. Also, its not necessary to delineate that.

 

[Revmitchell]

To compare faith in a chair with faith in God is utter foolishness.

Apparently you are good at making claims unsubstatniated. How about delineating your reason for your statement.

 

[JonC]

A distinction without a difference, however I never said any of that nor intended it. Also, its not necessary to delineate that.

It is a distinction but not one without a difference. You have presented belief as a choice and I have presented it as something completely apart from human decision. This is a very big difference, and it is one that speaks directly to how people are divided over this issue.

Saying it is a "distinction without a difference" glosses over the very real difference rather than addressing the issue. The way this difference manifests itself is that I believe God reveals Himself to those who are saved in such a way that they believe. Perhaps the extent to which God reveals Himself is the same, and the difference resides in those who ultimately reject God (I don't think this the case, but it is very possible). Either way it is not a choice - we believe what has been demonstrated to us as true. Everything else is opinion.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Yes, but He allows that to rebel.

But he allows them to refuse.

But allows them to reject.

You do not believe God is impotent, do you?

No sir, God is not "impotent". He is Almighty, TCassidy, and He doesn't want to have to put any human being in Hell but wants all to repent. Tell me, How does......."wants all to repent", jive with your "only chooses certain ones to be saved"?

 

[Revmitchell]

II have presented it as something completely apart from human decision. .

It's not.

 

[JonC]

It's not.

See. It is a difference with a distinction.

 

[Revmitchell]

See. It is a difference with a distinction.

Your original post did not read that way. There is nothing in scripture that there are different kinds of faith. The worship of faith has reached ridiculous heights. What makes faith so important is what we place our faith in, not faith itself.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Your narrative makes God out to be a failed Savior who, although he paid for all sins, is incapable of actually saving them all because he sits on his hands as humans make the choice between whether they will choose God or not. In your narrative God is a passive incapacitated being whose will is overruled by the human will.

Oh, no sir. That isn't it at all. He alone holds the consequences of our choices.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[JonC]

Your original post did not read that way. There is nothing in scripture that there are different kinds of faith. The worship of faith has reached ridiculous heights. What makes faith so important is what we place our faith in, not faith itself.

My apology. I meant for my original post to read that we do not choose what we truly believe.

What I mean is that Scripture presents us with two kinds of faith - as James notes in his epistle, there is a faith that is useless and a faith that is not. When we choose to believe in something the basis for that belief is always our choice (we can choose to abandon it later, or we can choose to keep it....but it does not change us because it is a reflection of us). But when we believe something because that thing has been revealed to us as truth then it changes us.

For example, I did not choose to believe that a capacitor could hold a painful charge even with the power off. I did not, in fact, believe it because I've touched many without ever getting shocked. BUT one day I got the daylight shocked out of me from a capacitor sitting on my work bench. Could I still deny the possibility of a capacitor holding a charge? No, of course not. And I could not but believe. No choice involved. And it changed the way I work on these units.

 

[Revmitchell]

My apology. I meant for my original post to read that we do not choose what we truly believe.

What I mean is that Scripture presents us with two kinds of faith - as James notes in his epistle, there is a faith that is useless and a faith that is not. When we choose to believe in something the basis for that belief is always our choice (we can choose to abandon it later, or we can choose to keep it....but it does not change us because it is a reflection of us). But when we believe something because that thing has been revealed to us as truth then it changes us.

For example, I did not choose to believe that a capacitor could hold a painful charge even with the power off. I did not, in fact, believe it because I've touched many without ever getting shocked. BUT one day I got the daylight shocked out of me from a capacitor sitting on my work bench. Could I still deny the possibility of a capacitor holding a charge? No, of course not. And I could not but believe. No choice involved. And it changed the way I work on these units.

I think you are missing the language used in James. James was not comparing two different types of faith. He was showing that those who claim to have faith but show no evidence of it, have no real faith. True faith always produces evidence.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

My apology. I meant for my original post to read that we do not choose what we truly believe.

What I mean is that Scripture presents us with two kinds of faith - as James notes in his epistle, there is a faith that is useless and a faith that is not. When we choose to believe in something the basis for that belief is always our choice (we can choose to abandon it later, or we can choose to keep it....but it does not change us because it is a reflection of us). But when we believe something because that thing has been revealed to us as truth then it changes us.

For example, I did not choose to believe that a capacitor could hold a painful charge even with the power off. I did not, in fact, believe it because I've touched many without ever getting shocked. BUT one day I got the daylight shocked out of me from a capacitor sitting on my work bench. Could I still deny the possibility of a capacitor holding a charge? No, of course not. And I could not but believe. No choice involved. And it changed the way I work on these units.

Good illustration.
If someone had already told you JonC, "capacitors can hold a charge and can shock you", and you took their word for it with proper precautions, that would be "faith". You chose to take them at their word, believing what they said.

God has not appeared to you in physical form, nor have you arrived in Heaven yet. So that "capacitor" has not discharged yet. But if you got saved, you took God at his Word as well. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" the Bible says.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your original post did not read that way. There is nothing in scripture that there are different kinds of faith. The worship of faith has reached ridiculous heights. What makes faith so important is what we place our faith in, not faith itself.

Yes, but the real question is what is the origen of saving faith, from God Himself, or somehow produced by those who are dead in their own sin natures?