Arminianism and Calvinism

[JonC]

Everything is of God but in Ephesians 2 the gift spoken of is not faith is is grace (salvation) saying through faith does not also make it a gift in the same sense that grace is. Faith comes from hearing the word.

I agree. Everything is of God here. And faith does come from hearing the Word (the gospel is, indeed, the power of God who brings salvation to all who believe).

The part where I do disagree is that I understand Ephesians 2 to be speaking of salvation as a whole (to include faith) as this gift.

 

[utilyan]

The trouble with this is that nobody gets saved. 'There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable.....' and so on (Romans 3:11-18).

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19).

'Unless the LORD of hosts had left to us a very small remnant, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been made like Gomorrah' (Isaiah 1:9).

'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory......' (Romans 9:20-23).

I think you need to get glasses or learn reading comprehension. No where is does it state that applies to all mankind. Ie. Jews are not calvinist and would laugh at your exegesis. Leave it to Calvinist to not see ALL MANKIND when it is and to see it when its clearly not.

 

[utilyan]

I gave a simple story but folks don't want to face the truth. They have to twist and vilify.

How there is no response is PROOF they hate their own idea of God

Three children are drowning in a lake, a man appears, he could save the three, pulls one out the water and tells him he actually deserves to drown. It is an absolute miracle he would decide to help anyone! So that child should be thankful he didn't leave him to die as he has full right to. And he is going to let the other two drown to show the world how great he is.

Three children are drowning in a lake, a man appears, he could save the three, so he pulls all three out the water.

Which of these men is the most honorable?


Common now spit it out.

 

[JonC]

Nope.

Hebrews 6

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They got the grace still fall.



Guess which verse is holy scripture and what is not at all holy scripture:

A
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

B
Romans 5
2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


One says exactly what you are saying, the other the exact opposite.

They did get grace. They had received the "elementary teachings about the Christ [the Messiah]", of repentance and faith, of the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.Should they turn back, abandon what they had received (here, turn back to Judaism) then they will find no other Christ. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, received a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." But these things are not the things that accompany salvation (verse 9). We are not talking about a general grace, or (since you mention the passage) about Israel and the prophets. We are talking about the grace of salvation.

Guess which verse is in holy scripture and what is not at all holy scripture:

A
Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

B
Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, lest you fall from grace into apostasy.

 

[utilyan]

They did get grace. They had received the "elementary teachings about the Christ [the Messiah]", of repentance and faith, of the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.Should they turn back, abandon what they had received (here, turn back to Judaism) then they will find no other Christ. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, received a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." But these things are not the things that accompany salvation (verse 9). We are not talking about a general grace, or (since you mention the passage) about Israel and the prophets. We are talking about the grace of salvation.

Guess which verse is in holy scripture and what is not at all holy scripture:

A
Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

B
Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, lest you fall from grace into apostasy.

A sounds right. Still waiting for you to work up the courage to tell me which verse is right above.

Mark 4

. 15“These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Why does Satan have to act at all if they don't have the capacity to understand the word?

 

[utilyan]

This is what it comes down to folks.

SHEER POWER vs LOVE

Evil always chooses power.

 

[JonC]

I gave a simple story but folks don't want to face the truth. They have to twist and vilify.

How there is no response is PROOF they hate their own idea of God

Three children are drowning in a lake, a man appears, he could save the three, pulls one out the water and tells him he actually deserves to drown. It is an absolute miracle he would decide to help anyone! So that child should be thankful he didn't leave him to die as he has full right to. And he is going to let the other two drown to show the world how great he is.

Three children are drowning in a lake, a man appears, he could save the three, so he pulls all three out the water.

Which of these men is the most honorable?


Common now spit it out.

Sure. First, no child deserves to drown in a lake. And men are responsible for each other (the answer to "am I my brother's keeper" is yes, we are. Not only that, but Christ commands us to love one another. And not only that, but it is by this love that we prove ourselves to be children of God. The child could be thankful...probably should simply for saving him from drowning. I don't think that a man would let children die to show the world how great he is. This does not really make sense.

The man that pulled out the children from the lake did, at least show love towards the children (at least an act that could be described that way). Insofar as being "honorable", what was the circumstances and motivation? Did the man have anything to do with the children falling into the lake? Was he a lifeguard just doing his job? Was he acting for an audience? There are too many things really unknown for us to say if either truly acted honorably.

And where were the children's parents? The parents of these children need to be held accountable for leaving them unsupervised (I take it they were too young to be playing around the lake alone).

 

[JonC]

A sounds right. Still waiting for you to work up the courage to tell me which verse is right above.

Mark 4

. 15“These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Why does Satan have to act at all if they don't have the capacity to understand the word?

“A” is right. It explains Hebrews 6 – we are not talking about the same type of grace (we are not talking about…as @Revmitchell noted, grace that is the flip side of salvation.

And to answer your quiz: we obtain our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand. In other words, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sure. First, no child deserves to drown in a lake. And men are responsible for each other (the answer to "am I my brother's keeper" is yes, we are. Not only that, but Christ commands us to love one another. And not only that, but it is by this love that we prove ourselves to be children of God. The child could be thankful...probably should simply for saving him from drowning. I don't think that a man would let children die to show the world how great he is. This does not really make sense.

The man that pulled out the children from the lake did, at least show love towards the children (at least an act that could be described that way). Insofar as being "honorable", what was the circumstances and motivation? Did the man have anything to do with the children falling into the lake? Was he a lifeguard just doing his job? Was he acting for an audience? There are too many things really unknown for us to say if either truly acted honorably.

And where were the children's parents? The parents of these children need to be held accountable for leaving them unsupervised (I take it they were too young to be playing around the lake alone).

Uti is drawing from Dr. Geisler's book 'Chosen But Free'. Dr. James White thoroughly debunked that foolish 'three kids drowning and only saving one child' story in 'The Potter's Freedom'.

 

[JonC]

Uti is drawing from Dr. Geisler's book 'Chosen But Free'. Dr. James White thoroughly debunked that foolish 'three kids drowning and only saving one child' story in 'The Potter's Freedom'.

Thanks.
I'm just not fond of the extra-biblical parable method. We use illustrations to illustrate, not as doctrine itself. They are not expected to stand on their own.

 

[utilyan]

Uti is drawing from Dr. Geisler's book 'Chosen But Free'. Dr. James White thoroughly debunked that foolish 'three kids drowning and only saving one child' story in 'The Potter's Freedom'.

Never heard of that book, Story just came from common sense the very basics of Christianity the character of Jesus/ God almighty.


James White is bit of joke. A guy who is thinks it miraculous surprise that God would save anyone. In other words James is surprised God is half a jerk rather then a complete Jerk he expected.


The put down is God is expected to be EVIL. Mankind deserves EVIL responses and EVIL Judgements. They copy and paste the totally depraved man's standard of "justice" as God's own sense of it. An evil abusive God who tortures Jesus.

 

[Reynolds]

Uti is drawing from Dr. Geisler's book 'Chosen But Free'. Dr. James White thoroughly debunked that foolish 'three kids drowning and only saving one child' story in 'The Potter's Freedom'.

"Thoroughly debunked" is opinion. I would say, gave an answer anyone but a Calvinist would laugh at.

 

[TCassidy]

"Thoroughly debunked" is opinion. I would say, gave an answer anyone but a Calvinist would laugh at.

Read James White's book, especially his dealing with that silly illustration. It was not only thoroughly debunked, it was shredded.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

SheepWhisperer
Learn to use the "quote" function.

I have been. What's the problem you're seeing?

 

[TCassidy]

I have been. What's the problem you're seeing?

Post #49 and Post # 53.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree. Everything is of God here. And faith does come from hearing the Word (the gospel is, indeed, the power of God who brings salvation to all who believe).

The part where I do disagree is that I understand Ephesians 2 to be speaking of salvation as a whole (to include faith) as this gift.

That is where we disagree, I can find no other passages that show faith as a gift.

 

[Revmitchell]

Which debunks your theology. Faith is not innate in man.

Not everybody has faith. Not everybody has heard the gospel before dying.

No, no it doesn't. We can choose to have faith in what ever we want. Once evidence is provided to us that gives us confidence in something. I have faith in the chair in which I sit. God extends grace by the preaching of the gospel. Everyone has the ability to believe and understand Romans 1:19.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I am not aware of Scripture speaking of “his faith”; “her faith”; or “their faith” except it being a faith in God. In fact, those who worshiped false gods or strayed from the One True God are described as not having faith. So we are talking about a faith in God, and specifically a faith in Christ towards salvation.

I do not believe that we can have faith in God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, revealing God to us. The reason I say this is I understand Scripture to indicate God actively hardening the hearts of people at times in order that they do not believe when faced with the truth of who He is. At the same time I see Scripture as indicating God actively opens the eyes of men to the truth of who He is. So apart from God and the work of God men will not believe.

Well, yeah bro. That's what I was talking about.

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Ok, once again, let's take it from the top. This is what I believe.........
God gave everyone two arms two eyes, a brain etc etc. And he gave everyone the capacity for faith in something or we wouldn't have folk believing in Allah, Buddah, Krishna etc.
So,
To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ one must be drawn by the Father (attracted, persuaded, "wooed") (John 6:44)
But, like the woman with the issue, when you believe on the Lord, you are putting YOUR faith in Him. Read it again bro. then take eveything I just said in context before you answer. Please? Thanks.

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

God wants us to love Him WILLINGLY and here is how HE made that possible..... 1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[InTheLight]

Which debunks your theology. Faith is not innate in man.

Yet Jesus marveled that the Centurion had faith. Jesus said he had "found faith" in him. Why would God say he found faith in someone if He himself was the one that 'gifted' it to him?

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith."

 

[TCassidy]

1Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.