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Featured If God Decided To Save No One Would He Be Unjust?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Calv1, Aug 2, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We should have those 2 camps here, instead of reformed, calvinists, baptists etc labels, just use those 2!
     
    #141 Yeshua1, Aug 5, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What is your education level? Are you Seminary trained?

    You said, as I quoted in my earlier post, that it was a position we held. That is an untruth. And to continue to say we do, is another untruth.

    And if the two mentions of it I found using Google are the extent of its popularity then it certainly is not used "regularly." I taught Systematic Theology and Biblical Theology (including, obviously, Soteriology) at the Seminary level for over 25 years and never heard the term.

    And I don't run in a "clique" nor am I a Calvinist, as I have stated several times in discussions with you. I am a Particular Baptist. A Monergist. I believe Christ actually saved me on the cross. He finished it. Nothing more needed to be added.

    All of God. None of me.
     
    #142 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2017
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is a meaningless term. God is either Sovereign or He is not. He can't be "kind of sovereign" or "a little bit sovereign." It is like a woman being pregnant. She either is or she isn't.

    And who, in this thread, believes in the mythical "hyper-sovereignty?" Give us a name.
     
    #143 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2017
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  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Hyper sovereignty is not mythical.
    The difference is to the extent He exercises his Sovereignty. He has the power and ability to control all. He answers to no one, that makes Him Sovereign. Pharoah who gave most his authority to Joseph was still sovereign. God can give man free will and be no less sovereign. To think God actively controls everything is Hyper Sovereignty. A tree limb falls. Did God do it? No, He had nothing to do with it other than creating gravity. Hyper Sovereignty would hold that God actively caused every limb that ever fell to fall.
    I consider Mennesota to have a Hyper sovereign view of God.
     
    #144 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    That would be a better means of differentiation.
     
    #145 MennoSota, Aug 5, 2017
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God is keenly aware of every limb that falls just as He knows the number of hairs on your head.

    Note Colossians 1:17, which tells us that Jesus holds all creation together. In this verse the word "all" is universal, which means that even the falling of a limb is ordained by God's will.
    Colossians 1:15-17
    [15]Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
    [16]for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.
    [17]He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.

    To imagine God is passively watching as men act without impunity is to ignore scripture and to create a false image of the Almighty God.

    If I am "hypersovereign" in your eyes then I wear the title with honor and thank you for the compliment.
     
    #146 MennoSota, Aug 5, 2017
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  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    There is a difference between passively watching and in controls absutely everything.
     
    #147 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    "he holds all creation together."

    What do you not get in this verse?

    Now, explain the difference which you imagine.
     
    #148 MennoSota, Aug 5, 2017
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Then He is Sovereign. How do you go beyond (hyper) power and ability to control all?
    So He had no control over the wind or the storm or the tree limb? He did not permit it to fall? Was he caught unawares?

    Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.




    Please repost something he has posted which indicates God has gone beyond the power and ability to control all.
     
    #149 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2017
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  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Reynolds don't you know that God has determined what you will eat for all of your meals for the rest of your life?

    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
    #150 InTheLight, Aug 5, 2017
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  11. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, my view of God is greater than even I imagined! Perhaps I have placed my faith in...MegaGod! Ha!
    Thanks TC. I just chuckle at the notion of some mythical concept called "hypersovereign" when we are discussing the Almighty God.
     
    #151 MennoSota, Aug 5, 2017
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We can't. While we can simplify Calvinism to be the Canons of Dort, or TULIP, or the Doctrines of Grace, or whatever we can agree upon we will still disagree.

    Some believe, based on Calvinism, that on the Cross God separated Himself from Christ; that God literally viewed Jesus as unholy and unrighteous. Some who affirm TULIP would consider themselves more in line with Armianism than those types of Calvinists.

    And then there is the issue of Non-Calvinism. We could say a non-Calvinist denies TULIP (or what ever we decide to be the standard of Calvinism). But that does not mean they hold a common doctrine. They may be Calvinistic in that they hold to Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, or they may hold to Anabaptist theology, or have a multitude of other differences.

    "Calvinism", "Arminianism", and "Non-Calvinism" (which I take to be not Calvinistic and, unlike Arminianism, not of a Calvinistic trajectory) tell us very little about what a person actually believes.
     
    #152 JonC, Aug 5, 2017
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Holds all creation together = setting the laws of physics into motion and watching them work just as He intended them to.
     
    #153 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If you can't offer something on topic, honest, and truthful, please stay out of the thread.
     
    #154 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2017
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  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Can God control a storm? Sure. Does He actively control every storm? No.

    Mennasota seems to me to go beyond God has the ability to control everything. I take what he says to mean God actively controls EVERYTHING.
     
    #155 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Yep. I guess He has determined what I write, what you write, what Mennasota and Cassidy writes. Makes it all seem kind of pointless.If He controlled it all, we have no choice not to.

    I know, I am ignorant. I will save you the trouble Mr. Cassidy.
     
    #156 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
  17. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Your comment clearly indicates that you view God as a passive watcher of his creation. The term for that view of God is Deism.
    In that view, God is silent and watches as his creation does its own thing. Deism does not jibe with scripture, however. You don't see God just kicking back and watching on the sideline. The God of the Bible is active and intricately involved in His creation.

    Just holding the creation and watching it fall apart is not Sovereignty by any stretch of the imagination.
     
    #157 MennoSota, Aug 5, 2017
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  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please don't lie about what others believe or what God does.
    God can, if He so chooses, control every aspect of the storm. But He is under no obligation to do so.

    "Hyper-sovereign" means "more than sovereign." God is sovereign over all. What is more than all?
     
    #158 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2017
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  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I am not lying about what y'all believe. Look at my illustration of the limb falling and look at Mennasotas response.
     
    #159 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I am not a deist. God is active and controls quite a lot.I just do not believe he controls nearly as much as you believe he controls. That is what I mean by you believe a hyper sovereign model of God. I look at God like a manager who manages the important things.
     
    #160 Reynolds, Aug 5, 2017
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