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If God Decided To Save No One Would He Be Unjust?
- Thread starter Calv1
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It is true. It is not what you will openly say you believe, but it is the only logical implication of your belief. I am not implying dishonesty, just failure to accept logical consequences. God is "sovereign." Go back and recall what many on here have to me that sovereignty encompasses. If He actively controlled it and it happened, man would be trampling His will to do it against his sovereign will. It seems to me that God is hyper sovereign at some times and not others.
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Why did Eve sin?Because he chose his wife over his God.
I agree that it was not Gods will for Adam to sin. There are some, I would assume are much more "hyper" than you, that have said "God ordained Adam's action before the foundation of The Earth." To me, ordained equals willed.
So according to your theory God gave a special ability to believe to those whom He would save? That sounds remarkably like Efficacious Grace to me. Are you sure you are not a Calvinist?
The things of God often make no sense to mankind.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to Yahweh our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
How few will there be, and where do you find that number in the bible? We know there will be a remnant, Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
We know that λειμμα means a "remnant" or a "remainder" but we don't know how large that "remainder" will be.
Because she was deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14 Adam wasn’t deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience;
No, it is not.
Please do not accuse us of lying about what we believe.
There is never a logical implication to an untruth other than it is untrue.
Yes, you are.
What consequences? The consequence of believing the bible? The consequences of believing salvation is by grace and not works? The consequences of giving God the glory and not robbing any for myself? If so, guilty as charged!
Now you are accusing God of being "hyper" at some point then, presumably not "hyper" at other times? You believe God changes?
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, nor shadow of turning.
God cannot change. All change is either for the better or for the worse. If God changes for the better then before the change He was not Perfect and therefore was not God. If He changed for the worse, after the change He was no longer Perfect and was thus no longer God.
Could God have willed Adam not to sin or ordained him not to sin? Yes! Therefore, he did ordain Adam to sin at least in the sense of permission. Does he permit us to violate His revealed will? Yes. Could He prevent us from violating his revealed will? Yes? Therefore, God did ordain us to violate his revealed will at least in the sense of permission. Psa. 76:10 seems to deal with that issue does it not?
Psa. 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise you: the remainder of wrath shall you restrain.
Acts 2:23 seems to deal with this issue as well
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Clearly, the tension between God's predestination and man's human responsibility is presented as factual and without contradiction by Scripture.
My friend, God does not hold you responsible for understanding how it works but He does hold you responsible for believing what he says in spite of the fact you may not understand it.
What is "hypersovereign?" It sounds like a word made up in order to hold on to one's autonomy.
I think your reasoning is due to a failure to understand the role of human nature existing and acting in Adam. I think the primary problem is failure to understand what role you and I played in Adam's free choice to become subservant to Satan's will. The whole of human nature existed and acted in one man - Adam. Again, notice Paul never says "by MANY MEN'S ACTS OF DISOBEDIENCE many be dead.....many be condemned......many be made sinners. That is precisely upon which your rationalizations originate. Instead, he repeatedly states "by THE OFFENCE OF ONE MAN" many be condemned,....be dead.....be made sinners.
The scriptures teach that Predestination refers to the elect in Christ, to the saved out people of God fro ranks of sinful Humanity, while double predestination states that God actively chose whom gets saved, and those who will be lost. My understanding is that God ordained that rejection of Jesus merits Hell and final judgement, but that all sinners also have chosen that end result.
To me, that is exactly what Calvinism teaches; God chooses who will be saved. By defacto He is also choosing who will remain lost.
An extreme application of His sovereignty.
Some do teach that, as I believe RC Sproul would, but my understanding is that God ordained the end result for sinners who keep on rejecting Jesus and salvation, but did not "force them" yo do that!
You have stated the problem succinctly However, God's Word works from the presumption that man is "already condemned" justly. For example, the term choose, chosen, elect or election is never to damnation. However, election is "to" salvation which presumes they are already lost and condemned already.
Moreover, the word of God speaks of salvation in terms of "mercy" which presupposes a just condemnation already has occurred. There is no need for "mercy" unless justice has issued a penalty of condemnation. In Romans 9 Paul speaks of "vessels of mercy" which presupposes that the "lump" of mankind is already in a fallen condemned condition or else there is no need for "mercy."
The problem is in two words "to me"! However, the Word of God does not support you in that view. In other words you are choosing human rationalism over revealed truth of Scripture simply because you cannot harmonize what scripture clearly states with your reasoning powers.
It's impossible to make God "extremely" Sovereign. Sovereign means that God rules supreme in every facet. There is nothing in which God is not in control.
We must not only give up our own will we must die to ourselves that Christ might live.
Why do you coin a term that gives you the power of decision and yanks control from God. If you don't want a Sovereign God then have the courage to proclaim your own kingdom.
Yeshua, all humans rebel against God. It's not just an intellectual choice, it is a setting up of a personal kingdom in complete rebellion. Humans are the ISIS, which God will destroy.
I am speaking of your view of His sovereignty.
Again, it is impossible to over emphasize God's Sovereignty.
You seem to be looking desperately for a way to rule. Why?
No, you are not. Please stop making such untrue accusations about what others believe.
It is His will, not man's will, that determines who gets saved. God chose Israel and left every other nation in their sin.
The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7:7-8]
He told Abraham He would make him a father of many nations, and the ppl in these nations would be so numerous no one could count them. Now, we are adopted into this family, and are partakers of the very same promises God gave to Abraham and his ppl.
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.[Galatians 3:6-9]
We are adopted Jews now. Unlike the proselyte Jews, who in the OT economy, could only go so far into the temple, we can boldly approach Him now through faith in Him.
If Adam had not sinned, would righteousness have been by the obedience of one, Adam?
If yes, where would that have left the great dragon, that old serpent called, the Devil and Satan?
What would have become of the Devil? I ask because of this verse. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Was the sin of the devil before, after or at the same time of Adam?
Is not redemption, the means by which the works of the devil, will be destroyed?
Was Adam created for the purpose of redemption, so the devil and his works could be destroyed?
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV
Isn't, "hope," the redemption?
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers (Beginning with Adam); But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19-20
The redeemed, are they the elect, the believing ones, see John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world, the predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Are those in the preceding paragraph: James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruit of his creatures.? King of first fruit, singular
O, how proud we are, of ourselves!
If yes, where would that have left the great dragon, that old serpent called, the Devil and Satan?
What would have become of the Devil? I ask because of this verse. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Was the sin of the devil before, after or at the same time of Adam?
Is not redemption, the means by which the works of the devil, will be destroyed?
Was Adam created for the purpose of redemption, so the devil and his works could be destroyed?
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV
Isn't, "hope," the redemption?
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers (Beginning with Adam); But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19-20
The redeemed, are they the elect, the believing ones, see John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world, the predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Are those in the preceding paragraph: James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruit of his creatures.? King of first fruit, singular
O, how proud we are, of ourselves!
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