If God Decided To Save No One Would He Be Unjust?

[The Biblicist]

Theoretically, on the basis of justice alone, God would have been perfectly just to immediately cast Adam and Eve, and thus all mankind, as all potential mankind existed in them, into hell. Scriptures do operate on this principle with regard to just condition of the lost as the scriptures declare mankind is "condemned already" (Jn. 3:18) and that the wrath of God is presently abiding over all unbelievers (Jn. 3:36). Hence, election "to" salvation is purely an act of "mercy" that owes man nothing but wrath. So the very acts of election and the use of "mercy" with regard to mankind presupposes a just fallen condition that can only be resolved by salvation based purely upon mercy.

 

[utilyan]

That is correct! He decided to choose, elect, select a vast number "to" salvation "through sanctification/setting apart by the Spirit and "belief of the truth" so that they "should be blameless and holy before him in love." That is what he actually decided. Such a choice or decision was necessary as "no man can come to me" which declares universal inability. If that were not so, there would be no need for the exception clause "except the Father draws him." The fact that the Father has also decided not to draw every human being further confirms the elective decision to salvation as those in John 6:64-65 were not drawn by the Father. Interestingly Jesus changes the wording from "except the father draws him" in verse 40 to "except it is given to him by the father" in verse 65 The change of wording reverses the problem of inability found in the word "can" in verse 40 to the solution where by the ability to believe is what the father needs to give in verse 65 as those in verse 64 never believed "from the beginning" simply because the ability to believe was never "given to him by the father."

Many want to take the short statement in John 12:32 and then read it back into John 6:29-65 and reverse the longer statement. However, the anarthous "pan" in John 12:32 is referring in context to the "Greeks" who were asking permission to see Jesus and Jesus was justifying that "all" classes of men will be drawn to him in contrast to the present belief of the Jews that "salvation was of the Jews" (Jn. 4:22) but in addition was restricted to Jews whereas salvation was for the "whole world" all ethnicities, genders, classes (Rev. 5:8-9).

No man can decline Jesus unless God creates them likewise. You can't even sniff your lip without the grace of God.


Show us the phrase "LIMITED ATONEMENT" in the bible. Its unbiblical stupidity is not found anywhere.


Who does GOD want to sin? Who does God command to sin? That is all you have to answer.

Only an idiot can't figure God's will after his command is stated.

God always gets what he wants right? Who does God want to sin?

 

[The Biblicist]

My God IS love..........

Why select just one of his attributes? My God is also holy and just and righteous! That is why there is a hell. Does your loving God send anyone to hell? Do you believe in hell? I don't think you understand the Biblical definition of love as love is not contrary to justice or contrary to his wrath which is presently abiding over all unbelievers (Jn. 3:36) who are "condemned already" (Jn. 3:18) by God's justice.

 

[TCassidy]

Those who do not receive the benefit of positive predestination are by default sent to Hell, or they send themselves to Hell or however you want to put it. Neither the man predestined to Heaven, nor the man who by default will end up in Hell deserved Heaven. Neither was a worse sinner than the other. Neither deserved Heaven. Both deserved Hell. One got Heaven. One got Hell. God offered one irresistible grace, He did not offer it to the other. Confuses the dickens out of me.

Trying to think the thoughts of God, with out limited fallible minds, will always result in confusion. That is why we just take God at his word. We walk by faith not by sight.

Two people. Both sinners.
Both hear the Gospel.
One is saved the other is not.

What is the difference?

Only one thing it can possibly be.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[TCassidy]

The leading scholar who support it do not agree on it.

Who appointed Sproul the "leading scholar?"

 

[Reynolds]

There is no 'if' to this. Jesus said all the Father gave to Him COME to Him, and none who come to Him will He cast aside.[John 6:37]

There's plenty of "if." You can not even attempt to explain what determines who The Father will give to The Son.

 

[The Biblicist]

Calvinism is not confusing? I would say John Macarthur is one of the most prominent Calvinists of today. He readily admits it confuses and troubles him.

I like Macarthur. He is quick to say "I don't know." Many Calvinists, on the other hand, suggest the person questioning them is stupid.

You are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is not confused about what the scriptures clearly state. He is not confused about the clear scriptural teaching of unconditional election and a definite particular atonement. He is simply saying that there is a dilemma to all revealed truths at some point in our reasoning ability because we do not have infinite understanding. Continue listening to the very video.

 

[utilyan]

Theoretically, on the basis of justice alone, God would have been perfectly just to immediately cast Adam and Eve, and thus all mankind, as all potential mankind existed in them, into hell. Scriptures do operate on this principle with regard to just condition of the lost as the scriptures declare mankind is "condemned already" (Jn. 3:18) and that the wrath of God is presently abiding over all unbelievers (Jn. 3:36). Hence, election "to" salvation is purely an act of "mercy" that owes man nothing but wrath. So the very acts of election and the use of "mercy" with regard to mankind presupposes a just fallen condition that can only be resolved by salvation based purely upon mercy.

That would be Satan's standard of Justice not God's. Sin itself is the penalty. Sin is not a PERK with consequences. No matter how much you enjoy sinning it is a punishment on to itself.

Show us the bible verse where GOD DECLARES everyone deserves hell.

NEVER HAPPENS. We get alot of lines that say people do bad things, people get punished for doing bad things,
But not one time does GOD HIMSELF DECLARE that everyone deserves to go to hell.

The idea that all people deserve hell was made up by stupid folks, NOT GOD.

Its an easy thing for me to prove....... Lets look at the scripture. Search for where GOD declares, God says...... He never says it.

Of course if i were STUPID i'd believe God said it without God even saying it, Because stupid folk have stupid powers to believe stupid things.

Does scripture ever state GOD appears and declares exactly all mankind deserves hell? Of course not........I would no longer be stupid if he actually did say it.

 

[TCassidy]

He loves him so much He does not offer him the "irresistible" offer that will keep him out of the fire?

Yes. God can love a person and judge his sin at the same time. God's is big enough to do that. One of the problems of understanding is that we try to make God over in our own, very small, image.

You accuse God of being unloving to those whom He did not elect unto salvation (Ephesians 1:4) yet you would also send all unrepentant sinners to hell, judging them to be worthy of hell fire, would you not? So, how is your "love" better than God's love? God chose, for the good pleasure of His own will (and for His own reasons which He has chosen not to share with us) to save some. Is He wrong to save some but not all? Romans 9:21.

You see, you have the same problem no matter which side of the argument you are on. God has the POWER to save all. But He has CHOSEN to only save some. I say He only saves the elect. You say He only saves those who believe. But either way, He COULD but does NOT save all. You just draw the line at a place different from where I draw the line.

 

[utilyan]

But people go to hell. And God has the ability to prevent it. So, according to your theory, he must be either unloving or less loving than you are. Right?

You will sin, But God has the ability to prevent it. So according to your theory he must be either unloving or less loving than you are. Right?

 

[InTheLight]

If His salvation plan works by the Calvinistic model, all He has to do to keep that sinner out of Hell is to extend "irresistible grace" to him. He loves him so much He does not offer him the "irresistible" offer that will keep him out of the fire?

Reynolds, once they are reduced to the logical corner they cannot escape from, the fall back position of Calvinists is "It's a mystery." "God's ways are not our ways." etc. etc.

Their other technique is ask silly hypothetical questions that appeal to the mystery aspect of God, "Why did you get saved but the guy sitting next to you in church did not?"

There is no way to continue a discussion once this point is reached, and I see that it has been reached. So best thing to do is just quit.

 

[MennoSota]

Plenty Menno. And when they do wrong its THEIR FAULT rather then GOD's fault.

Correct. All humans do wrong. All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.

God does not want you to sin. So you will never sin again right?

God is not pleased when we sin. He could stop us immediately. Since God chooses not to stop humanity from being rebellious we will sin. There will come a day when sin will not be tolerated. Do you prefer God no longer display patience?

Or is God too stupid and powerless to get what he wants?

God is accomplishing exactly what He wants. He wants to patiently wait until all persons found in the Lambs book of Life are marked as being saved. When that last person has been accounted for, God's patience with sin will end.

Why don't you stop sinning? You blame God. Because he has not provided you with this or that.

I sin because I am a rebel by birth. I desperately need God's grace and pardon in Christ. Praise God for His grace, which He chooses to give solely because he chooses to give it to me.

The reason you don't stop sinning Menno, is YOU DON'T WANT TO STOP.

No kidding! I admit openly that I am a wicked sinner who deserves God's damnation. In my own self my rightful punishment is hell for eternity!
My sinful nature loves breaking God's law and attempting to usurp his authority. If not for God's grace in making me alive in Christ, I would be doomed. It is only by grace, in Christ, that I stand uncondemned. Read Romans 7, 8 and 9 if this is a foreign concept for you.

You have nothing but excuses, excuses and excuses. Here's a novel idea, REPENT and take responsibility, Tell God you are in the wrong because it its ONLY your fault.

I make no excuse. I am guilty as charged. Your condemnation is right about me. If not for God's grace and reconciliation I would justly be damned to hell.

Not no "sin nature" , not no ordained permissive license to sin, You sin and you NEVER ADMIT it is YOUR FAULT. You think you are greater then GOD, That YOU never sin, You always blame GOD for your mess.

I openly confess that I am a wicked sinner who cannot claim one good thing about myself. My wickedness and corruption oozes through every pore of my being. I have nothing to offer God that isn't a filthy rag. I blame my own self and no one else.
I praise God that there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
If I am not in Christ, I am condemned. If I am in Christ, I am not condemned.
Do you dare to tell me if I am found in Christ or not found in Christ?
God is never blamed. God is forever praised for extending me mercy and grace in Christ Jesus.
Pull out a cigar and have a smoke with me and Spurgeon. God is good!

 

[TCassidy]

You can not even attempt to explain what determines who The Father will give to The Son.

Why should we have to? Can you DEMAND an answer from God? Does He owe you an answer? Why? Romans 9:21.

 

[InTheLight]

You see, you have the same problem no matter which side of the argument you are on. God has the POWER to save all. But He has CHOSEN to only save some.

So according to Calvinism by logical necessity, by passing these people up for election he must be choosing them for damnation.

 

[TCassidy]

Reynolds, once they are reduced to the logical corner they cannot escape from, the fall back position of Calvinists is "It's a mystery." "God's ways are not our ways." etc. etc.

Their other technique is ask silly hypothetical questions that appeal to the mystery aspect of God, "Why did you get saved but the guy sitting next to you in church did not?"

There is no way to continue a discussion once this point is reached, and I see that it has been reached. So best thing to do is just quit.

So you are privy to the thoughts of God. You know why some believe and others don't?

Please, share this wisdom of the ages which you have acquired which nobody else in all of creation has possessed.

We await your Omniscient wisdom with bated breath.

 

[InTheLight]

So you are privy to the thoughts of God. You know why some believe and others don't?

Their other technique is ask silly hypothetical questions that appeal to the mystery aspect of God.

 

[TCassidy]

So according to Calvinism by logical necessity, by passing these people up for election he must be choosing them for damnation.

Again. No. They are ALREADY CONDEMNED. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[TCassidy]

Their other technique is ask silly hypothetical questions that appeal to the mystery aspect of God.

So you admit your total ignorance on the subject and that you just play childish games from the sidelines?

 

[The Biblicist]

So according to Calvinism by logical necessity, by passing these people up for election he must be choosing them for damnation.

God does not have to choose anyone to damnation as that is our choice already as we come into this world "condemned already" due to our choice "in Adam" as the totality of human nature acted in one man by one deed - Rom. 5:12-19. Notice that the text does not say "by many men's offences" or "by the deeds of many" but repeatedly states "by one man's offence MANY be dead....many were made sinners."

 

[Revmitchell]

So you are privy to the thoughts of God. You know why some believe and others don't?

Please, share this wisdom of the ages which you have acquired which nobody else in all of creation has possessed.

We await your Omniscient wisdom with bated breath.

Yes, anyone who reads their Bible knows and understands the answer to this question. Are you ready?



Scripture says "John 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

There are those who love their wickedness more than they love the Savior. I did not say it. It is not my Omniscient wisdom but God's who has revealed it in His word.