If God Decided To Save No One Would He Be Unjust?

[MennoSota]

That scripture is telling us that Jesus was born of flesh and blood, as a Jew, so that He could die, defeat death, and free men from the same. Then we also see in another scripture that the Gospel was sent to the Gentiles. Matter of faxt, Jesus Himself saved Gentiles during His ministry. So I don't know what your point is but back up just four(4) verses above and you will find this.......

Hebrews 2: 9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

To whom was the author of Hebrews writing his letter? Was it to believers or to all humanity?
You struggle with the English word "all" and demand that it is addressing all humanity. The context, however, clearly refers to those whom the author is addressing. Thus...every man is every one whom God has elected.
If it was all humanity then all humanity would be saved. No rejection by any human would thwart the sacrifice Jesus gave for all humanity. If human rejection could prevail over God's work, then humans would be greater than God.
Do you see the horrible error in which you have fallen?

 

[Reynolds]

R.C. Sproul did not write my bible. He is a Presbyterian, not a Baptist.

Gibberish.

Gibberish is right. I have no idea what he meant by that. Yet another example of why Calvinism is difficult to harmonize. The leading scholar who support it do not agree on it. Many Baptist Calvinists closely associated with Sproul.

 

[Reynolds]

All sinners deserve hell as the wages of sin is death. But predestination, in the bible, is never negative but always positive. God predestines us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Those who do not receive the benefit of positive predestination are by default sent to Hell, or they send themselves to Hell or however you want to put it. Neither the man predestined to Heaven, nor the man who by default will end up in Hell deserved Heaven. Neither was a worse sinner than the other. Neither deserved Heaven. Both deserved Hell. One got Heaven. One got Hell. God offered one irresistible grace, He did not offer it to the other. Confuses the dickens out of me.

 

[Reynolds]

So, God is unloving (or at least less loving than you) because some people God to hell?

No. If your view about the way He operates is correct, then He is all loving in a way that He has yet to give me the ability to comprehend. I don't question His love, I question our understanding of it.

 

[Reynolds]

They are convicted lawbreakers. How loving are you to ignore justice?

They are all convicted lawbreakers. I would be choosing which ones I offer pardon and which ones I pass by.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well let me clarify it for you;


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

literally...everyone...now we know not everyone is saved, so we go to the text and see if the context tells us who is the everyone in view...it does watch;



10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Everything bolded is speaking of the elect children,
the church,
the brethren,
the seed of Abraham,
His brethren,
the captain of their salvation,
many sons,
to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Does this look like everyman who ever lived,or the church, the children given by the Father???

And here's how to exegete a passage of scriptures. Kudos!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

No. If your view about the way He operates is correct, then He is all loving in a way that He has yet to give me the ability to comprehend. I don't question His love, I question our understanding of it.

Brother, we try to approach the scriptures with God's attributes in view. Now, if God is immutable, and He is, and His love is an everlasting love, what do we say about those who He casts headlong into eternal torment?

Does He love them up until the day of judgment, only to do a 180 and hate them? Does He love them, even after He has cast them headlong into eternal torment?

 

[utilyan]

it was just an illustration ...dont press it if you want to come to truth....the others were passed over....

try this one....you next week inherit a fortune...you decide to adopt10 children.....you select 10, pass by the rest...
Can you be blamed for passing by the others? You did not have to select any?

No the accurate story is YOU CAN ADOPT ALL EASILY, but decide to adopt only 10.

Its amazing how the story keeps changing afterwards they are "criminals" who "hurt" God. Its like pressing attempted murder charges for a child throwing a nerf ball at you.


Today God doesn't want you to sin ever again, to never absolutely 100% never sin again. Really 100% does not want you to sin. And you have the 100% capacity to never sin again.

God gives you 100% possibility to avoid all sin:

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

So when you do sin, who's fault is that? There is no atheist I am only human excuse. There is no sin nature holding you back, It is 100% your fault.


God doesn't want anyone to sin, ever, God does not want anyone in the world to sin and be lost to damnation.

 

[MennoSota]

Brother, we try to approach the scriptures with God's attributes in view. Now, if God is immutable, and He is, and His love is an everlasting love, what do we say about those who He casts headlong into eternal torment?

Does He love them up until the day of judgment, only to do a 180 and hate them? Does He love them, even after He has cast them headlong into eternal torment?

We say that God is a Just God. His attribute of holiness and justice is displayed in his love by rightly casting criminals into hell. God tells us he hates sin. His wrath is kindled by sin. What kind of love ignores the criminal behavior of a person and instead just opens the arms with no restitution required? Is that love?
It is that sort of behavior that you are demanding from God. You demand that God's love be unjust. You demand that God's attributes of holiness, righteousness and justice be abandoned purely because your twisted concept of love cannot fathom a God of justice.

 

[MennoSota]

No the accurate story is YOU CAN ADOPT ALL EASILY, but decide to adopt only 10.

Its amazing how the story keeps changing afterwards they are "criminals" who "hurt" God. Its like pressing attempted murder charges for a child throwing a nerf ball at you.


Today God doesn't want you to sin ever again, to never absolutely 100% never sin again. Really 100% does not want you to sin. And you have the 100% capacity to never sin again.

God gives you 100% possibility to avoid all sin:

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

So when you do sin, who's fault is that? There is no atheist I am only human excuse. There is no sin nature holding you back, It is 100% your fault.


God doesn't want anyone to sin, ever, God does not want anyone in the world to sin and be lost to damnation.

Are there any sinners and lawbreakers in your fantasy world?

 

[SovereignGrace]

We say that God is a Just God. His attribute of holiness and justice is displayed in his love by rightly casting criminals into hell. God tells us he hates sin. His wrath is kindled by sin. What kind of love ignores the criminal behavior of a person and instead just opens the arms with no restitution required? Is that love?
It is that sort of behavior that you are demanding from God. You demand that God's love be unjust. You demand that God's attributes of holiness, righteousness and justice be abandoned purely because your twisted concept of love cannot fathom a God of justice.

I haven't twisted anything Brother. I am sorry if it came across that way. God's justice demands the penalty for sin. God's justice and wrath was poured out upon His Son and He took that penalty of sin in our place so we don't and won't have to.

 

[MennoSota]

I haven't twisted anything Brother. I am sorry if it came across that way. God's justice demands the penalty for sin. God's justice and wrath was poured out upon His Son and He took that penalty of sin in our place so we don't and won't have to.

My response is more directly toward the folks who cannot reconcile the attributes of God. They have a twisted view of God's love, which castrates God's attributes of holiness, righteousness and justice.

Where people struggle is when they would take your word "our" and make it universally true for all mankind. If that were true then all would be saved. But, we know that not all are saved. Thus Christ took the penalty only for the elect and not for all humanity. If the payment were for all humanity then God would be unjust when he tossed pardoned sinners into hell.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We say that God is a Just God.

Oh, I agree.

His attribute of holiness and justice is displayed in his love by rightly casting criminals into hell. God tells us he hates sin. His wrath is kindled by sin. What kind of love ignores the criminal behavior of a person and instead just opens the arms with no restitution required? Is that love?

Again, no disagreement from me here.

It is that sort of behavior that you are demanding from God. You demand that God's love be unjust. You demand that God's attributes of holiness, righteousness and justice be abandoned purely because your twisted concept of love cannot fathom a God of justice.

I was asking Brother Reynolds these questions to further the discussion. God, being immutable, doesn't love and then do a 180 and then hate them. So, it shows that His love is upon those the Christ died for.

 

[Reynolds]

Brother, we try to approach the scriptures with God's attributes in view. Now, if God is immutable, and He is, and His love is an everlasting love, what do we say about those who He casts headlong into eternal torment?

Does He love them up until the day of judgment, only to do a 180 and hate them? Does He love them, even after He has cast them headlong into eternal torment?

If His salvation plan works by the Calvinistic model, all He has to do to keep that sinner out of Hell is to extend "irresistible grace" to him. He loves him so much He does not offer him the "irresistible" offer that will keep him out of the fire?

 

[SovereignGrace]

If His salvation plan works by the Calvinistic model, all He has to do to keep that sinner out of Hell is to extend "irresistible grace" to him.

There is no 'if' to this. Jesus said all the Father gave to Him COME to Him, and none who come to Him will He cast aside.[John 6:37]

He loves him so much He does not offer him the "irresistible" offer that will keep him out of the fire?

Without God drawing them, none will come to Him seeking to be saved. That's the thrust of John 6:37-45.

The same word used for 'draw' is the same used when Peter drew the sword to cut an ear off and the net Peter dragged to the shore that was full of fish.

God does not drag us kicking and screaming, but effectually draws us.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

We say that God is a Just God. His attribute of holiness and justice is displayed in his love by rightly casting criminals into hell. God tells us he hates sin. His wrath is kindled by sin. What kind of love ignores the criminal behavior of a person and instead just opens the arms with no restitution required? Is that love?
It is that sort of behavior that you are demanding from God. You demand that God's love be unjust. You demand that God's attributes of holiness, righteousness and justice be abandoned purely because your twisted concept of love cannot fathom a God of justice.

The God of the Bible "so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.. He requires justice bro, and I have told you this over and over, But you seem to have a propensity for misrepresenting people. .

 

[MennoSota]

The God of the Bible "so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.. He requires justice bro, and I have told you this over and over, But you seem to have a pattern of misrepresenting people. .

Explain what justice is in your mind.
All will perish unless they, in faith, believe. They cannot have faith unless God makes them alive and gives them the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
God's love is not undiscerning.

SheepWhisperer, are humans, by nature, good or evil? Are they saints or sinners? Are we lawbreakers or perfect law abiders?

Your concept of God's love is twisted by your corrupt view of the human condition. You imagine humans to be worthy of being saved.

 

[utilyan]

Are there any sinners and lawbreakers in your fantasy world?

Plenty Menno. And when they do wrong its THEIR FAULT rather then GOD's fault.

God does not want you to sin. So you will never sin again right?

Or is God too stupid and powerless to get what he wants?

Why don't you stop sinning? You blame God. Because he has not provided you with this or that.

The reason you don't stop sinning Menno, is YOU DON'T WANT TO STOP.

You have nothing but excuses, excuses and excuses. Here's a novel idea, REPENT and take responsibility, Tell God you are in the wrong because it its ONLY your fault.

Not no "sin nature" , not no ordained permissive license to sin, You sin and you NEVER ADMIT it is YOUR FAULT. You think you are greater then GOD, That YOU never sin, You always blame GOD for your mess.

 

[The Biblicist]

Correct, SG. But that wasn't what He decided. Nowhow do we live with His decision?

That is correct! He decided to choose, elect, select a vast number "to" salvation "through sanctification/setting apart by the Spirit and "belief of the truth" so that they "should be blameless and holy before him in love." That is what he actually decided. Such a choice or decision was necessary as "no man can come to me" which declares universal inability. If that were not so, there would be no need for the exception clause "except the Father draws him." The fact that the Father has also decided not to draw every human being further confirms the elective decision to salvation as those in John 6:64-65 were not drawn by the Father. Interestingly Jesus changes the wording from "except the father draws him" in verse 40 to "except it is given to him by the father" in verse 65 The change of wording reverses the problem of inability found in the word "can" in verse 40 to the solution where by the ability to believe is what the father needs to give in verse 65 as those in verse 64 never believed "from the beginning" simply because the ability to believe was never "given to him by the father."

Many want to take the short statement in John 12:32 and then read it back into John 6:29-65 and reverse the longer statement. However, the anarthous "pan" in John 12:32 is referring in context to the "Greeks" who were asking permission to see Jesus and Jesus was justifying that "all" classes of men will be drawn to him in contrast to the present belief of the Jews that "salvation was of the Jews" (Jn. 4:22) but in addition was restricted to Jews whereas salvation was for the "whole world" all ethnicities, genders, classes (Rev. 5:8-9).

 

[TCassidy]

No. If your view about the way He operates is correct, then He is all loving in a way that He has yet to give me the ability to comprehend. I don't question His love, I question our understanding of it.

But people go to hell. And God has the ability to prevent it. So, according to your theory, he must be either unloving or less loving than you are. Right?