Featured I am Genuinely Confused

You've got Ephesians 1:4-5. You rely massively on those two verses.
You've got a misapplication of Ezekiel 36 (interesting that you claim Ezekiel 36 applies nowadays when it clearly was written to Israel, yet Ezekiel 18 does not),
You've got a sketchy interpretation of Romans 8:29-30.
You've got a misinterpretation of Romans 9 where you assign the message to individuals and not to Israel. (See the pattern? Pick and choose verses that apply to Israel and transfer them to individuals when it suits you; apply them to Israel when they don't fit your theology.)

That's the core of Calvinism.

Yes, but I'm not an Arminian or a semi-Pelagian. Nice try with the name calling, though.

 

Only Ephesians chapter 1? That's all you think is available to Reformed theology? Wow! You are misinformed. Multiple passages in John, Romans 3 -12, Ephesians 1-2, both Thessalonians, 1 Peter, etc.
ITL, I ask you to do a word search for "chosen", "elect", "predestined" and see the number of passages addressing the issue. Then, start at Genesis and go through Revelation and mark the times that God chooses specific individuals or groups. From God choosing to pardon Adam and Eve, to God choosing the 144,000, you can't miss God's election. You have to close your eyes and plug your ears to miss God's elective work.

 

I gave up trying to find the answers to this. I don't think we'll know this side of heaven.

Having said that - Election: Does God Send People to Hell?

Steve Brown (old presbyterian) here has an interesting take on predestination and mans responsibility. It's not new, but I found it interesting, not being a calvinist, nor a full blown arminian either. I think I'm what is derogatorily called a Calminian.

One quote " There is no indication in Scripture as to exactly how God foreknew. I believe, though not biblical, that God does arrange circumstances so that the greatest possible number of people would be elect given the factors of human freedom and responsibility. God's love and election have to be reconciled somehow. God chose with tears in his eyes."

 

Wow! What an amazingly bad quote. It's head shakingly bad.
God foreknew because God is not bound in time. God is omniscient. The Bible is clear, but the person giving the quote apparently does not know God.
The problem you seem to have is that you are forcing your definition of love upon God and since you can't reconcile that with God's choices, you create a wimpy God that you can fit into your definitions.

 

I didn't write the quote. Steve Brown, professor at Knox Seminary did.

Why are you such a nasty person to accuse me of things when you know nothing about me. Sorry that you are hurting and feel the need to be vindicated by belittling others.

You say "the problem I seem to have" as though you've seen a pattern, when this is the first post I have posted in this cal/arm debate forum. I hope you find peace man, because I've been where you are, constantly needing to be right to affirm your own beliefs. If you correct everyone else, there is noone left to correct you right?

 

It's what he does.



Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

I know you didn't write the quote. I didn't say you did. Forgive me if you don't agree with that quote. It's an amazingly bad view of God.
This is not about needing to be right. This is about pointing out what is horribly wrong.

 

the two are not related, so there's no reason they need to coexist

Now you're making sense though.

There is predestination, but it does not relate to who is saved from hell and who goes to heaven.

the predestined ones, the chosen ones, will be a much smaller number than those who go to heaven

predestination relates to an inheritance. It is both corporate and individual. Corporately, we have been predestined to share in the inheritance of Christ when he returns. It's the same thing as the whole nation of Israel being Chosen and predestined before an inheritance in the Promised Land.

but securing The Inheritance is not inevitable for every Christian, just like it was not inevitable for every Israelite

Yes, just like an Israelite could be cut off from the people, cut off from the land, cut off from The Inheritance.

Life and death don't always relate to going to heaven or being saved from hell. more than once, God told the Israelites "I have set before you this day life and death, blessing and cursing"

Read Deuteronomy 30. He wasn't telling them to choose to be saved from Hell or choose to go to heaven. He was telling them to choose blessing rather than cursing. And he equated it with life versus death.

And in his appeal to the Israelites to secure the promise through obedience, he reminded them that it was unconditionally promised to their forefathers

The only thing you've missed is context

 

James, you keep repeating heresy. No matter how much you repeat it, it's still heresy.

 

I would expect nothing less from mother Rome and her half-breed children of the Reformation

 

From our perspective we choose God. From God's perspective He chose us

 

Except we are referring to the heresy you preach that is not biblical.

 

You don't mesh it. Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with being saved from hell.

Election has nothing to do with being saved from hell

I believe you're trying to read Romans 9 as a treatise on God making people fit for heaven or hell, which is not the case.

It's a long piece to type, but I can if I need to go indepth. Romans 9 cannot be understood apart from chapter 8. And the context for chapter 8 starts with chapter 5.

Yes. But the two questions are - chosen for what? And shows them on what basis?

Brother, just take a deep breath. Don't put so much pressure on yourself to have everything all figured out all at once

I don't believe becoming born again is a matter of the will, so I believe Calvinists and Arminians are in error

 

Is seeking this truth setting you free, or putting you into a sort of bondage? If you discover that Calvinism is true, how will it free you? If you discover that Arminianism is true, how will it free you? Will you do things any differently if either, or neither is true, or something else is true?

 

can you explain how you might figure each one of those might factor into whatever you're struggling with?

are you thinking in the context of all events throughout history?

Or are you thinking only in the context of someone becoming a believer in Christ?

Or are you thinking in terms of how the word "predestine" is used in scripture, and how it is framed in context?

 

Hi Stephen,
I've posted this several times before on the forum, but maybe you've missed it.

John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me..........' There is your predestination and your Calvinism. God has given to the Son a people to redeem, and He will save every single one. See also John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6. But......

'........And the One who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Here is your free will. Nothing stops the greatest sinner in the world-- slave-dealers, Islamic terrorists, rapists, paedophiles-- from coming to Christ, except their wicked unbelieving hearts; He will not cast them out if they come. No one will ever be told that Christ's blood is not sufficient to save him.

The Calvinist holds these two truths together absolutely. If we find it hard to reconcile them, we know that God has no such difficulty. The gates of heaven are wide open; whosoever wills may enter (Revelation 22:17), but when he enters, he will find that God has loved him from the foundation of the world and has drawn him to Him with cords of love (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 11:25; John 6:44; Revelation 21:27).