I am Genuinely Confused

[Martin Marprelate]

Sorry, I get it now. I would say you are advocating for a predestinationist viewpoint using selected verses in John..

I'm still not quite sure you're getting it. Let me try to show you again from Acts 4:

Acts 4:27-28. 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together...............
..............to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.'

You have to believe both these verses and hold them together in harmony.
If you believe verse 27 and not verse 28, all you have is a two-bit conspiracy against the Lord Jesus, with God the Father looking on impotently. It's just one of those nasty miscarriages of justice that occur from time to time-- regrettable, but not of cosmic significance.
But if you believe v.28 and not v.27, then Herod , Pilate and the people are mere ciphers and not responsible for their actions, so it is not just for God to hold them accountable. It is only when you hold both verses together, despite the apparent tension, that you get the full, biblical picture.

Now look at John 6:39 and John 6:40 from the same angle. Now try it with Matthew 11:25-27 and Matthew 11:28-30.

 

[robycop3]

God has certainly predestinated certain people for special service to Him, including some who began as pagans, such as Nebuchadnezzar. Remember, He told Jeremiah that He knew Jerry before he formed in his mom's womb. OTOH, I don't believe He ever predestinated anyone for doom, with no chance for salvation. Even Judas had a choice. Remember, Jesus made it clear to Judas that He knew Judas' plan to betray Him. Judas still had the choice to repent and not carry out his plan. God woulda found another to perform it, had that happened.

Even Hitler had the choice! When he was a boy, he actually considered becoming a RCC priest!

In summary, I believe God has predestinated some for special service to Himself, while making salvation open to all people.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'm still not quite sure you're getting it. Let me try to show you again from Acts 4:

Acts 4:27-28. 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together...............
..............to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.'

You have to believe both these verses and hold them together in harmony.
If you believe verse 27 and not verse 28, all you have is a two-bit conspiracy against the Lord Jesus, with God the Father looking on impotently. It's just one of those nasty miscarriages of justice that occur from time to time-- regrettable, but not of cosmic significance.
But if you believe v.28 and not v.27, then Herod , Pilate and the people are mere ciphers and not responsible for their actions, so it is not just for God to hold them accountable. It is only when you hold both verses together, despite the apparent tension, that you get the full, biblical picture.

Now look at John 6:39 and John 6:40 from the same angle. Now try it with Matthew 11:25-27 and Matthew 11:28-30.

I can understand that God in His power could save all though, but doesn't. That God in His power could determine all events beforehand easily. That said, I guess I am struggling with the idea that God doesn't always use His power to get what He wants.

John 6:39-40 is a much better example to me of biblical support for predestination.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I have discovered a motherload of verses that are making me think, since they support the idea that people can make choices opposed to God's will.

(Exodus 34:9) (Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5); (Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13); (Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27); (Judges 2:19); (2 Kings 17:14); (2 Chronicles 30:8); (2 Chronicles 36:13); (Nehemiah 9:16); (Isaiah 46:12); Isaiah 48:4); (Jeremiah 7:26); (Hosea 4:16)

They have pushed me back on fully accepting predestination for now. I find myself unable to answer them well.

I have also asked myself what is free will and I have discovered that the term seems loaded, libertarian, and humanocentric. Instead, "free will" seems to be God granting others power over Himself and His will, I can only suspect out of love for them as people made in His image. The bible is full of instances of this it seems, especially in the Old Testament.

Of course, if there is a reality of God giving people power over His plans; then books like Daniel, Revelation, and verses like (Genesis 15:12-15) make it certain that this power is not too great. That the fall of Egypt, and indeed it seems all empires, had been set up for centuries beforehand. Daniel shows that Alexander the Great's empire was fated to be cut into four sections under different generals of his.

Maybe Arminians and "free will" types are correct in some of their assertions, but make some major mistakes in how their cause is couched and how they treat those that believe in predestination. I'll write on this in a while, as I think I am approaching the end of this journey in the near future as my mind is settling down to a state of peace and certainty. I am very thankful though that I made this journey as far as I have as it gives a window into my spiritual family on both sides and has led me to put faith into the fact God is sovereign and in control, no matter how things appear. I will of course type up my final conclusions and ask that they be tested.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have discovered a motherload of verses that are making me think, since they support the idea that people can make choices opposed to God's will.

(Exodus 34:9) (Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5); (Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13); (Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27); (Judges 2:19); (2 Kings 17:14); (2 Chronicles 30:8); (2 Chronicles 36:13); (Nehemiah 9:16); (Isaiah 46:12); Isaiah 48:4); (Jeremiah 7:26); (Hosea 4:16)

They have pushed me back on fully accepting predestination for now. I find myself unable to answer them well.

I have also asked myself what is free will and I have discovered that the term seems loaded, libertarian, and humanocentric. Instead, "free will" seems to be God granting others power over Himself and His will, I can only suspect out of love for them as people made in His image. The bible is full of instances of this it seems, especially in the Old Testament.

Of course, if there is a reality of God giving people power over His plans; then books like Daniel, Revelation, and verses like (Genesis 15:12-15) make it certain that this power is not too great. That the fall of Egypt, and indeed it seems all empires, had been set up for centuries beforehand. Daniel shows that Alexander the Great's empire was fated to be cut into four sections under different generals of his.

Maybe Arminians and "free will" types are correct in some of their assertions, but make some major mistakes in how their cause is couched and how they treat those that believe in predestination. I'll write on this in a while, as I think I am approaching the end of this journey in the near future as my mind is settling down to a state of peace and certainty. I am very thankful though that I made this journey as far as I have as it gives a window into my spiritual family on both sides and has led me to put faith into the fact God is sovereign and in control, no matter how things appear. I will of course type up my final conclusions and ask that they be tested.

Sinners can and do reject God in their lives, as the truth is not that the lost will not keep on rejecting and refusing God in their lives, resisting Him, but those those whom are the called and elect in Christ cannot and will not reject Jesus and salvation!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

One point I have to make though: Doesn't it seem like God has more freedom, in a relational way, if He does allow some amount of choice in the people He makes? I mean, God can choose at times to interact with people that have some choice, but Who He has absolute sovereignty over, instead of interacting with something more akin to a computer program He wrote.

 

[Yeshua1]

One point I have to make though: Doesn't it seem like God has more freedom, in a relational way, if He does allow some amount of choice in the people He makes? I mean, God can choose at times to interact with people that have some choice, but Who He has absolute sovereignty over, instead of interacting with something more akin to a computer program He wrote.

The problem is that some wish to allow for mankind to have full free will, just the same as God, and only God has that kind, as we are all restrained by our sin natures!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The problem is that some wish to allow for mankind to have full free will, just the same as God, and only God has that kind, as we are all restrained by our sin natures!

Of course, we are all finite and start lost in sin after all.

 

[Reynolds]

OK, I am stepping into this debate.

I cannot fathom how certain bible verses on predestination and election can coexist with other bible verses about God wanting everyone saved. Yet they are there regardless of what I think.

My first thought is that God can have it both ways: yes there is predestination but somehow He wants all saved, but that seems nonsensical to me on fundamental levels. Of course, it might be I cannot fathom the mind of God. I am a worm, a slug to God after all.

Assuming I could be wrong and the answer obvious in the bible though, for predestination I usually think of the following bible verses:
1. Ephesians 1-2
2. Romans 9-11
3. Psalms 139:16
4. Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8

However, the book of life itself is confusing since Exodus 32:31-33 and Revelation 3:5 seem to indicate that everyone is written in the book and they are blotted out for iniquity.

Of course Ephesians 1-2, Romans 9-11, and Psalms 139:16 seem definitive to me, and were for a short time until I found Ezekiel 18.

Ezekiel 18 makes it so abundantly clear that God wants all to repent and be saved that I am genuinely confused. When I pray that His will is done on earth as it is in heaven, I know now that this means that I should pray that all repent and be saved. I have also looked for more beyond Ezekiel 18 and that gets me into the regular suspects of Arminian verses I see debated all the time about God wanting all saved and the idea that Jesus died for all people, but not all will be saved.

I also have the verse Romans 3:25-26 that seems to indicate God considered it unrighteous and possibly unjust not to send Jesus.

I want to get at the bottom of this though. However, I do feel far more inclined to believe in free will, but then again that is likely because I am a normal Westerner.

So what say you all? Have I missed something?

I will say one thing, modern Calvinists have moved the goal posts by redefining what Arminianism is. 1. Classicl Armininism fully embraced the doctrine of total depravity. Arminius himself was perfectly clear about depravity.
2. Classical Arminianism had no stated belief, one way or the other, on perseverance of the saints.
There are only 3 contentious points. They are not as contentious as many Calvinists would lead you to believe.

 

[InTheLight]

When the non-Cals vehemently declare, "I am not an Arminian!", all the classical Arminians say "AMEN!!!"

They would not want today's non-Cals in their ranks.

You Calvinists and your mind reading skill. It's just incredible! Is this another gift?



Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have discovered a motherload of verses that are making me think, since they support the idea that people can make choices opposed to God's will.

(Exodus 34:9) (Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5); (Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13); (Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27); (Judges 2:19); (2 Kings 17:14); (2 Chronicles 30:8); (2 Chronicles 36:13); (Nehemiah 9:16); (Isaiah 46:12); Isaiah 48:4); (Jeremiah 7:26); (Hosea 4:16)

They have pushed me back on fully accepting predestination for now. I find myself unable to answer them well.

I have also asked myself what is free will and I have discovered that the term seems loaded, libertarian, and humanocentric. Instead, "free will" seems to be God granting others power over Himself and His will, I can only suspect out of love for them as people made in His image. The bible is full of instances of this it seems, especially in the Old Testament.

Of course, if there is a reality of God giving people power over His plans; then books like Daniel, Revelation, and verses like (Genesis 15:12-15) make it certain that this power is not too great. That the fall of Egypt, and indeed it seems all empires, had been set up for centuries beforehand. Daniel shows that Alexander the Great's empire was fated to be cut into four sections under different generals of his.

Maybe Arminians and "free will" types are correct in some of their assertions, but make some major mistakes in how their cause is couched and how they treat those that believe in predestination. I'll write on this in a while, as I think I am approaching the end of this journey in the near future as my mind is settling down to a state of peace and certainty. I am very thankful though that I made this journey as far as I have as it gives a window into my spiritual family on both sides and has led me to put faith into the fact God is sovereign and in control, no matter how things appear. I will of course type up my final conclusions and ask that they be tested.

Brother, I truly appreciate the attempt you are making to reconcile your beliefs with scripture. May God bless you and help you to understand Him better and grasp His word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You Calvinists and your mind reading skill. It's just incredible! Is this another gift?



Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

Well, I did delete it, but I guess you quoted it before I did.

And to the ignore pile for you, sport.

 

[Reynolds]

Plus, predestination is not double. Predestination is how God works grace into the hearts of His chosen ppl. The others are justly left in their sins.

It is double. It always has been double. Many high Calvinists no longer mind the term. There are two possible outcomes. Rescue or leave. Refusing to rescue, leaves.

 

[rsr]

I will say one thing, modern Calvinists have moved the goal posts by redefining what Arminianism is. 1. Classicl Armininism fully embraced the doctrine of total depravity. Arminius himself was perfectly clear about depravity.
2. Classical Arminianism had no stated belief, one way or the other, on perseverance of the saints.
There are only 3 contentious points. They are not as contentious as many Calvinists would lead you to believe.

I would generally agree with that. Arminianism is part of Reformed theology, just as Calvinism is, and they agree on more theological points than not. Of course, if it not in each side's polemical interests to point that out.

 

[rsr]

It is double. It always has been double. Many high Calvinists no longer mind the term. There are two possible outcomes. Rescue or leave. Refusing to rescue, leaves.

And I generally agree with you on that topic. Yes, there are arcane explanations of why one is not the other, all involved in the order of decrees, but they are unconvincing.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Does the Lord ever give others power over Him? That is the whole matter of free will it seems. I would answer “yes” given the scriptures of the Old Testament. God gave the people of Israel power over Him emotionally like a man gives to His wife. I cannot fathom how to argue against such a claim given the books of the prophets. How can I put it though, God can do this because He is absolute sovereign over all He has created.

Choice is about being able to interact with God as a person it seems. We are like sheep interacting with a shepherd or small children interacting with an adult. There is a darker side here in that we are capable of so much more evil to each other than a sheep or a child even though we still don’t threaten God except to hurt Him through our rejection of His will.

Regardless, how “free will” works as some type of infinite sovereignty over the self is ridiculous and unbiblical. It is a humanocentric attempt to make man into God or like God. At most we have the “free will” to accept or reject God’s initiative, which are His precepts and commands to us. To thwart God’s will, but we should be in reverent fear for what awaits those who would tell the Lord “no.”

Ecclesiastes is downright blunt: Our whole duty to God is to fear and obey Him and to obey Him is to love Him according to Jesus (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) (John 14:15). To see the glory of what we go to we must look at the angels and how they simply obey the Lord without question as Jesus, the Son of God, does. This may not sound glorious and majestic to us, but it is the truth of our future glory and majesty.

How the Lord’s foreknowing works in relation to all else about God and His interaction with us does not make sense right now fully, but will be understood in heaven. We still look through a glass darkly, but given the many bible verses gone through in this thread I see that having some verses putting the idea of "election" and "predestination" is allowable given the weight of biblical verses that God allows a limited amount of choice in his sheep or children, especially to obey or disobey Him. Of course, the many verses on the security of the Believer show that once a person is brought to salvation and is indwelt by the Spirit they are eternally marked for glory.

It seems we have the ability to reject His drawing Spirit, who works and at times speaks through the apostles, evangelists, and believers, especially before kings and authorities (Matthew 10:19-20). This to draw all people to Christ, including many who eventually rejected the apostles, evangelists, believers, and the Spirit.
17 Bible verses about Resisting Holy Spirit

It seems to me that Paul concentrates on the foreknowing of the Lord in his perspective, but this perspective still takes into account the fact Believers and false believers will stand or fall on the Day of Judgment based on their choices, which he so often warns them of.

Faith is not a work as Romans 11 contrasts it with works.

Romans 9 is about the people of Israel and their privileged status compared to all others. A privileged status now given to the gentiles since Israel was so stubborn and evil refusing to obey the Lord, His prophets, and even His Son. In working grace and mercy though, God is always fully justified in what He does, but (Romans 3:25-26) shows God has an internal understanding of what is just and righteous to Him. A justice that forced Jesus to the Cross.

What strikes me is that unless I was willing to allow for Calvinism to be true, I could make no further progress on the issue.

I will write up a new thread with my newfound theology fully explained in this forum and I can test it against you guys and gals. I finally understand that God is sovereign though and that I can always trust in Him. That we are like sheep before a shepherd or like toddlers before a parent. Oddly enough He gave that to me in this search.

 

[Mr. Davis]

It is double. It always has been double. Many high Calvinists no longer mind the term. There are two possible outcomes. Rescue or leave. Refusing to rescue, leaves.

God has mercy on some and the rest receive His Justice. There is no injustice with God!

 

[rsr]

What strikes me is that unless I was willing to allow for Calvinism to be true, I could make no further progress on the issue.

I will write up a new thread with my newfound theology fully explained in this forum and I can test it against you guys and gals. I finally understand that God is sovereign though and that I can always trust in Him. That we are like sheep before a shepherd or like toddlers before a parent. Oddly enough He gave that to me in this search.

You are still on your journey. Until a few years ago I denigrated and scoffed at "Calvinism." I now lean toward an Augustinian soteriology, but I freely admit I may be wrong and I cannot even be certain I am among the elect. Calvin, it seems to me, went places in speculation that he should not have gone in developing a systematic theology.

God is in control and I must accept that all his judgments are just. And that's the heart of the matter for me.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Does the Lord ever give others power over Him?/QUOTE]

Both the "free-willers" and the Calvinists will tell you No. You have had four pages and 75 posts to consider. I am sincerely glad that you are no longer confused! Perhaps now, you should click on the Report button and tell an Administrator to close the thread.

 

[rsr]

I see no reason to close the thread. You are still searching and it seems that comments have made an impression. Keep it open if you want — until the page limit is reached.