Featured I am Genuinely Confused

I can understand that God in His power could save all though, but doesn't. That God in His power could determine all events beforehand easily. That said, I guess I am struggling with the idea that God doesn't always use His power to get what He wants.

John 6:39-40 is a much better example to me of biblical support for predestination.

 

I have discovered a motherload of verses that are making me think, since they support the idea that people can make choices opposed to God's will.

(Exodus 34:9) (Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5); (Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13); (Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27); (Judges 2:19); (2 Kings 17:14); (2 Chronicles 30:8); (2 Chronicles 36:13); (Nehemiah 9:16); (Isaiah 46:12); Isaiah 48:4); (Jeremiah 7:26); (Hosea 4:16)

They have pushed me back on fully accepting predestination for now. I find myself unable to answer them well.

I have also asked myself what is free will and I have discovered that the term seems loaded, libertarian, and humanocentric. Instead, "free will" seems to be God granting others power over Himself and His will, I can only suspect out of love for them as people made in His image. The bible is full of instances of this it seems, especially in the Old Testament.

Of course, if there is a reality of God giving people power over His plans; then books like Daniel, Revelation, and verses like (Genesis 15:12-15) make it certain that this power is not too great. That the fall of Egypt, and indeed it seems all empires, had been set up for centuries beforehand. Daniel shows that Alexander the Great's empire was fated to be cut into four sections under different generals of his.

Maybe Arminians and "free will" types are correct in some of their assertions, but make some major mistakes in how their cause is couched and how they treat those that believe in predestination. I'll write on this in a while, as I think I am approaching the end of this journey in the near future as my mind is settling down to a state of peace and certainty. I am very thankful though that I made this journey as far as I have as it gives a window into my spiritual family on both sides and has led me to put faith into the fact God is sovereign and in control, no matter how things appear. I will of course type up my final conclusions and ask that they be tested.

 

One point I have to make though: Doesn't it seem like God has more freedom, in a relational way, if He does allow some amount of choice in the people He makes? I mean, God can choose at times to interact with people that have some choice, but Who He has absolute sovereignty over, instead of interacting with something more akin to a computer program He wrote.

 

Of course, we are all finite and start lost in sin after all.

 

Does the Lord ever give others power over Him? That is the whole matter of free will it seems. I would answer “yes” given the scriptures of the Old Testament. God gave the people of Israel power over Him emotionally like a man gives to His wife. I cannot fathom how to argue against such a claim given the books of the prophets. How can I put it though, God can do this because He is absolute sovereign over all He has created.

Choice is about being able to interact with God as a person it seems. We are like sheep interacting with a shepherd or small children interacting with an adult. There is a darker side here in that we are capable of so much more evil to each other than a sheep or a child even though we still don’t threaten God except to hurt Him through our rejection of His will.

Regardless, how “free will” works as some type of infinite sovereignty over the self is ridiculous and unbiblical. It is a humanocentric attempt to make man into God or like God. At most we have the “free will” to accept or reject God’s initiative, which are His precepts and commands to us. To thwart God’s will, but we should be in reverent fear for what awaits those who would tell the Lord “no.”

Ecclesiastes is downright blunt: Our whole duty to God is to fear and obey Him and to obey Him is to love Him according to Jesus (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) (John 14:15). To see the glory of what we go to we must look at the angels and how they simply obey the Lord without question as Jesus, the Son of God, does. This may not sound glorious and majestic to us, but it is the truth of our future glory and majesty.

How the Lord’s foreknowing works in relation to all else about God and His interaction with us does not make sense right now fully, but will be understood in heaven. We still look through a glass darkly, but given the many bible verses gone through in this thread I see that having some verses putting the idea of "election" and "predestination" is allowable given the weight of biblical verses that God allows a limited amount of choice in his sheep or children, especially to obey or disobey Him. Of course, the many verses on the security of the Believer show that once a person is brought to salvation and is indwelt by the Spirit they are eternally marked for glory.

It seems we have the ability to reject His drawing Spirit, who works and at times speaks through the apostles, evangelists, and believers, especially before kings and authorities (Matthew 10:19-20). This to draw all people to Christ, including many who eventually rejected the apostles, evangelists, believers, and the Spirit.
17 Bible verses about Resisting Holy Spirit

It seems to me that Paul concentrates on the foreknowing of the Lord in his perspective, but this perspective still takes into account the fact Believers and false believers will stand or fall on the Day of Judgment based on their choices, which he so often warns them of.

Faith is not a work as Romans 11 contrasts it with works.

Romans 9 is about the people of Israel and their privileged status compared to all others. A privileged status now given to the gentiles since Israel was so stubborn and evil refusing to obey the Lord, His prophets, and even His Son. In working grace and mercy though, God is always fully justified in what He does, but (Romans 3:25-26) shows God has an internal understanding of what is just and righteous to Him. A justice that forced Jesus to the Cross.

What strikes me is that unless I was willing to allow for Calvinism to be true, I could make no further progress on the issue.

I will write up a new thread with my newfound theology fully explained in this forum and I can test it against you guys and gals. I finally understand that God is sovereign though and that I can always trust in Him. That we are like sheep before a shepherd or like toddlers before a parent. Oddly enough He gave that to me in this search.