Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

The "Jacob's trouble" spoken of by the weeping prophet has not yet been fulfilled. He is speaking of a different event.

Notice is last words in verse 7? "but he shall be saved out of it."

"shall be" is a future event, not a past event. Jeremiah was not speaking of that which happened 2,500 years ago.

 

SFC,

Oops, wrong verse.

Jer. 30:7 speaks of Israel shall be bring into capitvity under Babylon, that why, it called, "Jacob's Trouble".

Then, Jer. 30:8 speaks of Israel shall be free from captivity, that was already fulfilled in time of Ezra and then Nehemiah.

Later today, I will type down the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 thru 30, what it is all talking about, so, we shall be able to understand what Jer. 30:7 is all talk about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I disagree, DPT. Jeremiah is speaking constantly in a future tense throughout the chapter. Had he been speaking of the past, he would have used past tense phrasology. He did not.

 

Sorry, but I wasn't sure. Ok then, AMEN!:thumbs:

 

Based on my studies, I believe the biblical view is Pre-Wrath.

 

Perhaps. But please look at Matt 24 (MSG). 'His Return will fill the skies. His appearing will be blazing, with splendor and power.' "At that same moment, he'll dispatch his angels with a trumpet-blast summons, pulling in God's chosen from the four winds, from pole to pole."

This is no "secret" Rapture. It comes suddenly. "The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise -- they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the same time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master." (1 Thes 4 MSG).

Before the day of the Master's arrival, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." (1 Thes 2 MSG)

God will protect the Church during the Tribulation. That is what Paul means in Rom 5:9, about "Wrath." Some will be martyred. These are those "beheaded by the ax" under the altar in Revelation.

The "time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation) includes the Jewish believers that enter the Millennium with the Church.

I will seriously consider what you have to say. Remember, I said, "Perhaps." I have an open mind and you might even be able to change it!

 

I believe we are all saved by Grace. Just as you do. However you being a Calvinist and me a free will er we are bound to disagree. Man cannot fully submit to Christ with out being willing to do so. There is only one way to Christ that I know of. How ever during the tribulation Those who come to believe in Christ may not have the indwelling of the Spirit if He has been removed. This is a mystery to me but God can be in all places at the same time. It may be that the Spirit can be removed as the restrainer and will stay to indwell those who come to Christ during the tribulation. I can only speculate. We know the one who restrains sin will be removed and only God can control Satan. Satan instigates all sin.
MB

 

AMEN

 

God has to make the spiritually dead alive before they can receive Christ. This is something only God can do. Man is DEAD in sins and trespasses (Eph 2) A dead man can will nothing. Man is reborn (regenerated) and then comes to faith. His Grace was foreordained to the Elect.

I think you have heard this before. I have certainly heard the free-will arguments. Yes, God is in all places at the same time. This is His Omnipresence. He also knows all times and all things. His Omniscience. He is also All-powerful (Omnipotent).

I am interested in what you think about my earlier post: Post-Tribulation Rapture.

 

Hi Mr Davis;
I've spoken with many hear that believe as you do. The rapture comes all of a sudden and that is where the secret is. No one knows except the Father when it will happen and that is the secret . The rapture is not the second coming it is an event before the second coming. Christ does not come to earth He sends His angles to gather us and take us to Him. When Christ comes in the second coming He brings all the saints with Him. He can't do that unless we are already with Him. When Christ comes His feet will touch the ground, and until that happens He hasn't come to earth.

There is not one thing that has to happen before the second coming. Eminence is what keeps us all watching for Him. We simply do not know when Christ will return. Those who claim they do are the very ones who embarrass them selves with false predictions. Only the Father knows.

The church will be protected the whole church because we will all be with Christ. Those who are martyred will be those who come to Christ because of the preaching of the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Whether you change your mind because of what I've told you is between you and God. God directs my path and yours to.

May God bless
MB

 

Thank you, MB. Do you think it is only the two witnesses that preach? Perhaps, the 144,000 as well?

 

True. The 144000 will also spread the gospel.
MB

 

Actually, I tend toward the Pre-Trib Rapture. I did read, however, a book on all the views. Seemed to be good arguments for pre and post. No longer have the book. Couldn't remember everything about post-. Was what I said pretty much the post- view?

Felipe said he was pre-. The reason I said "Perhaps," about it was because I had read the post view and thought it had equal standing. But your statements agree with Walvoord's. (He was the President of Dallas Theological Seminary and a writer on end times events.) I just remembered his book.

Can you add anything more about pre-? I would like to save what you write.

I appreciate your patient dialogue with me.

Larry

 

I once was a die hard pre trib rapture person, but after years of reading the bible in regards to this, not seethe scripture evidence more as what we see as being the rapture event is actually the second coming one!Historical premil now.

 

Yeshua1 wrote:
I once was a die hard pre trib rapture person, but after years of reading the bible in regards to this, not seethe scripture evidence more as what we see as being the rapture event is actually the second coming one!Historical premil now.

So, when does the Rapture take place? Post Trib, when the Lord comes a second time, before the Millennium? What is "Historical premil"?

 

I didn't mean to give you that impression about post trib. Since you've read John Walvoord and you agree with him then we think alike on the subject. I'm not an expert though I can tell you that prophecy ( fulfilled and unfulfilled ) has always been an interest of mine. I've read "The blessed hope and the tribulation","Major Bible Prophecies" and "14 essential keys to understand prophecy the final drama"all By Walvoord. This man is simply brilliant. I've also read several other authors like Hunt, Marrs, Salem, JR Church" and Price all of these hold to the Pre-tribulation view.
MB

 

This ancient thread is attracting comments so I'll jump in.

The OP question "Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?" implies a line of interpretation based on the Darby/Scofield system with prophecy fulfilment deferred to a future dispensation with a very complicated scenario as developed in the "Left Behind" fiction popularised by Tim & Jerry. (LaHaye & Jenkins.)

It's popularity was largely due to the free distribution of of Scofield Bibles in the colleges as a readily available one-volume commentary by a writer who was strong on the inspiration & authority of the Bible at a time when modern criticism was undermining the Christian faith.

Before that the basic Christian belief - Roman Catholic, Protestant & Baptist - was the the present Gospel age would continue until Jesus returned in glory for resurrection & judgment, & to establish the New Heaven & New Earth. The interpretation of Revelation was generally the "amillennial view" that it forecast the conflicts of the Gospel age.

The present Israel-centred system that sees a future fulfilment of OT prophecy with the Jews becoming again God's chosen people was largely unknown. While some believers thought there would be a revival among the Jews towards the time of Jesus' return, most denominations saw them as perpetually under God's judgment & to be persecuted.

My understanding is Fulfilment theology, (aka Partial Preterism) that the judgment prophecies focus on AD 70, with only "this generation" that rejected its Messiah suffering the vengeance of God. Both during the 40 years & down the ages, the Gospel has been open to the Jews as well as all nation; that persecution is totally abhorrent & believing Jews & Gentiles are one redeemed people of God.

The whole "Scofield" scenario is false as it focuses on national Israel rather than on Christ, his Gospel & his church.

Worse than that, it has taken over US & to a lesser extent UK politics so that vast amounts of money & armaments - including nuclear weapons - are supplied to Israel & are being used for the subjugation & ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, including Christians. Such gross injustice is absolutely contrary to the teaching of Moses & the prophets.

Micah 2 describes the Israeli settlers:

2:1 Woe to those who devise iniquity,
And work out evil on their beds!
At morning light they practice it,
Because it is in the power of their hand.
2 They covet fields and take them by violence,
Also houses, and seize them.
So they oppress a man and his house,
A man and his inheritance.

6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly, To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?​