Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

[Tom Butler]

MB, if you define the Restrainer's being "taken out of the way" as the HS's simply removing his restraint against the Man of Sin, then you are on much sounder ground than some of your fellow dispies. They read this to mean that the HS is removed from earth when the saints are raptured.

You also asked, who else could he be? It seems to me that we can simply say "I don't know" without trying to make his identity fit the dispy position.

You also say:

Some say that if the Holy Spirit were to be taken away then no one would be able to be saved. This isn't true because the disciples were saved before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. But you do realize that this is at odds with most dispies. I was first taught that after the pre-trib rapture, no Gentile can be saved, that during the Tribulation, God will deal with only the Jews, and only they can be saved. If I read you right, you don't hold this view.

Your view is also consistent with Rev 7:6 "After this I looked and there was before me a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, people, tribe and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb..."

In verse 14, John's angel guide identifies them: "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation...."

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Revelation does not say they came out of 'the great tribulation,' but rather 'great tribulation.'

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


I do not believe this is speaking of a people who are martyred during 'the great tribulation,' but of those who have been martyred in the early centuries who would not deny Christ. Read of the many accounts of martyrs and the tribulations assigned to them because of their faith.

 

[Tom Butler]

SFIC, my quote of Rev 7:14 was from the NIV, which translates it, THE great tribulation.

This passage also follows Chapter 6, where I read it to portray the beginning of the great tribulation. Chapter 8 also tells of the seals, which I also take to occur during the great tribulation.

Further, John is being show future events, not past events, as far as I can tell.

That's my rationale for the view that I take of 7:14.

 

[chuck2336]

I'm more of a PAN-Mill, However it pans out I will be with Jesus so it's all good!


:thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC, my quote of Rev 7:14 was from the NIV, which translates it, THE great tribulation.

This passage also follows Chapter 6, where I read it to portray the beginning of the great tribulation. Chapter 8 also tells of the seals, which I also take to occur during the great tribulation.

Further, John is being show future events, not past events, as far as I can tell.

That's my rationale for the view that I take of 7:14.

At the time John was writing, many of the early Church martyrs had not yet been killed.

I don't trust the NIV. The NIV also tells us in 1 Corinthians 7:1 that it is not good for men to marry.:laugh::tonofbricks:

 

[Linda64]

The King James Version says:

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When you make a distinction between the church and Israel, you will not find the church going through any of the 7-year tribulation period. The Church is nowhere to be found from Revelation, chapter 4 till chapter 19. In chapter 19, the church is not going through a tribulation period, but coming back with Christ to rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most definitely the Holy Spirit. In order for the Antichrist (wicked one/son of perdition) to be revealed to the unbelieving world, the Holy Spirit, Who now indwells the Church, must be removed.

In other passages of the Bible, the Holy Spirit is said to be the restrainer of sin:

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.


The Holy Spirit will no longer be the restraining power after the rapture of the church, but being God, He will still be present in the world, as He was during the Old Testament times.

If the Holy Spirit is not the "Restrainer", please explain what is this "restraining" power, and back that up with Scripture, in context, please.

 

[MB]

You also asked, who else could he be? It seems to me that we can simply say "I don't know" without trying to make his identity fit the dispy position.

I can't say that because I have looked at scripture as a whole and if you will only look at it that way allowing scripture to interpret it self I'm sure you'll see it as well. We know man of himself is unable to conquer sin. Only God can over come it which is why He became our escape from it. He took all of our sins upon Himself Past present and future. There is only one who controls even Satan and that's God.

You also say:


Agreed. But you do realize that this is at odds with most dispies. I was first taught that after the pre-trib rapture, no Gentile can be saved, that during the Tribulation, God will deal with only the Jews, and only they can be saved. If I read you right, you don't hold this view.

No I do not hold that view. There will be many who will be martyred during the trib because of Christ. Many will repent of their ways because of what the two witnesses say. I do not believe they will be indwelled by the Spirit that time is past at that point. They will have to endure and keep their own faith. Christ said,
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
When faced with death because of faith many will accept the lie rather than die.

Your view is also consistent with Rev 7:6 "After this I looked and there was before me a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, people, tribe and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb..."

In verse 14, John's angel guide identifies them: "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation...."

I believe only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. Namely the "144000"
MB

 

[MB]

Revelation does not say they came out of 'the great tribulation,' but rather 'great tribulation.'

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


I do not believe this is speaking of a people who are martyred during 'the great tribulation,' but of those who have been martyred in the early centuries who would not deny Christ. Read of the many accounts of martyrs and the tribulations assigned to them because of their faith.

I'm not a Greek expert but according to what I do know of it, the Greek Texus Receptus does say "the Great tribulation" The KJV was taken from the the Texus Receptus. I've used the KJV all my life although it isn't perfect, it's the best IMHO.
The appearance of the word "the" doesn't prove any difference as far as I can see. Both ways of saying it is still proper given the context. It's obvious to me that the angle was speaking of the The great tribulation given the context. Just before this He was speaking of the 144000 Jews. 12000 from each tribe and so on.
MB

 

[MB]

The King James Version says:

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When you make a distinction between the church and Israel, you will not find the church going through any of the 7-year tribulation period. The Church is nowhere to be found from Revelation, chapter 4 till chapter 19. In chapter 19, the church is not going through a tribulation period, but coming back with Christ to rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most definitely the Holy Spirit. In order for the Antichrist (wicked one/son of perdition) to be revealed to the unbelieving world, the Holy Spirit, Who now indwells the Church, must be removed.

In other passages of the Bible, the Holy Spirit is said to be the restrainer of sin:

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.


The Holy Spirit will no longer be the restraining power after the rapture of the church, but being God, He will still be present in the world, as He was during the Old Testament times.

If the Holy Spirit is not the "Restrainer", please explain what is this "restraining" power, and back that up with Scripture, in context, please.

Hi Linda,
The Holy Spirit is the restrainer because only God can control sin. The only way anyone else has a chance is by the power of God. I am weak but he is strong.
MB

 

[Linda64]

Hi Linda,
The Holy Spirit is the restrainer because only God can control sin. The only way anyone else has a chance is by the power of God. I am weak but he is strong.
MB

I thought that is what I said.

The Holy Spirit will no longer be the restraining power after the rapture of the church, but being God, He will still be present in the world, as He was during the Old Testament times.

If the Holy Spirit is not the "Restrainer", please explain what is this "restraining" power, and back that up with Scripture, in context, please.

My question was to those who don't believe the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer".

I believe the Holy Spirit will be active during the Tribulation, but not like He was during the age of grace...He will be working as He did in the Old Testament times. God's wrath and judgment will be poured out on the unbelieving world during the Tribulation period...especially during the "time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)...the last 3 and 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation period.

 

[Tom Butler]

MB said:

There will be many who will be martyred during the trib because of Christ. Many will repent of their ways because of what the two witnesses say. I do not believe they will be indwelled by the Spirit that time is past at that point. They will have to endure and keep their own faith.

So, do I read you right? That there is another way of salvation for those who are saved during the tribulation? By works?

 

[Tom Butler]

The Church is nowhere to be found from Revelation, chapter 4 till chapter 19.

This is an argument from silence, and thus not a strong argument.

However, we do find Gentile believers there (who are the Church by your definition).
Rev 6:9 "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God..."

Rev 7 The 144,000 Jews. By your definition, believers are the Church. These are believers.

7:14 The martyrs, Gentile believers--the Church.

Rev 11 The two witnesses. Believers. Members of the Church.

Remember the context of all these events--during the Tribulation.

To be clear, I myself make no distinction between the Church and Israel, mainly because I believe that there is no such entity as the Universal Church, and also because I am a Historical Pre-mil. I'm using your definitions.

 

[Linda64]

This is an argument from silence, and thus not a strong argument.

However, we do find Gentile believers there (who are the Church by your definition).
Rev 6:9 "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God..."

After the rapture of the Church, there will be NO church on the earth. The tribulation period is God's plan to "finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy". (Daniel 9:24). Daniel is speaking of ISRAEL, not the Church. Daniel's people are Israel. Therefore the tribulation period is meant for Israel, not the Church. No matter what you do, you can't "force" the Church to be Israel.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

6:9 under the altar the souls The souls of those new believers slain in these early years of the tribulation are seen as "under the altar" in the heavenly tabernacle (Hebrews 9:2-9), like the blood of the sacrifices under the ancient altar in the tabernacle (Leviticus 4:18).
[King James Defender's Bible]

6:9 slain for the word of God. All believers will have been removed from the earth before the unleashing of these divine judgments on earth, yet ther will still be an abundance of silent witnesses. Remaining on earth will be Bibles, Christian literature, Christian films and tapes, etc., as well as the eternal witness in creation and conscience, plus the testimony of the two witnesses (11:3-7) and the 144,000 sealed Israelites (7:1-8). "When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).

Rev 7 The 144,000 Jews. By your definition, believers are the Church. These are believers.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

144,000 are ALL ISRAELITES! Not one Gentile amongst them!

7:14 The martyrs, Gentile believers--the Church.

Rev 11 The two witnesses. Believers. Members of the Church.

Those martyrs in Revelation 7:14 are probably Gentile martyrs, but they certainly NOT the Church, for the Church will not go through the tribulation. They have already been "caught up to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

7:14 great tribulation This phrase is literally "the tribulation, the great one." It will follow immediately after the Antichrist has his great image, "the abomination of desolation," set up in the new temple at Jerusalem (13:6-8, 11-18; Matthew 24:15-16, 21). This will be the signal for the most intense of all persecutions and a great multitude of new believers will be executed, with their souls joining those of the martyrs of the early years of the tribulation (6:9-11) who also have "white robes" and are waiting for them. [King James Defender's Bible]

The two witnesses of Revelation do not represent the Church. They represent the "two olive trees" of Zechariah's vision providing oil for the lampstand (Zech. 4). The angel told Zechariah that "these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). That necessarily means that His two witnesses were both standing by Him in heaven during all the times between their translation and their return to the earth. Both Enoch and Elijah had been accustomed walking closely with the Lord and standing by Him during their earthly lives. (Genesis 5:24; 1 Kings 17:1), and they have continued close by Him in heaven ever since.

Remember the context of all these events--during the Tribulation.

To be clear, I myself make no distinction between the Church and Israel, mainly because I believe that there is no such entity as the Universal Church, and also because I am a Historical Pre-mil. I'm using your definitions.

What is your definition of the context of the tribulation and why do you believe the Church will remain here during that period? Do you believe God is finished with the nation of Israel and do you also believe the Church has replaced Israel?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Linda64,

Did John saying, he saw "Church" in the heaven between Revelation chapter 4 to 19?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Tell me what is "saints" of Rev. 11:18; 13:7,10; 14:12; 15:3; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9 mean?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[MB]

MB said:


So, do I read you right? That there is another way of salvation for those who are saved during the tribulation? By works?

I guess you read me wrong LOL. There is only one way and it's Christ alone. Although those in the tribulation will not have the comforter dwelling with in them.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

After the rapture of the Church, there will be NO church on the earth. The tribulation period is God's plan to "finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy". (Daniel 9:24). Daniel is speaking of ISRAEL, not the Church. Daniel's people are Israel. Therefore the tribulation period is meant for Israel, not the Church. No matter what you do, you can't "force" the Church to be Israel.

Linda, where you start determines where you come out. Since we start with different assumptions, we could debate this forever and not come out at the same place. Your arguments are consistent with dispensational theology. My views obviously are not. So I'm not inclined to get too deeply into the finer points.

I'm going to get out of this discussion, leaving with one request: Please find for me one clear, unequivocal, no-subject-to-any-other-interpretation verse which speaks of a pre-trib rapture.

No one debates over Jesus' return at the end of the tribulation, because there are clear scriptures that say so. What I want is that same kind of verse for pre-trib.

 

[MB]

I thought that is what I said.


My question was to those who don't believe the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer".

I believe the Holy Spirit will be active during the Tribulation, but not like He was during the age of grace...He will be working as He did in the Old Testament times. God's wrath and judgment will be poured out on the unbelieving world during the Tribulation period...especially during the "time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)...the last 3 and 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation period.

I was agreeing with you and should have just said Amen.
MB

 

[DeafPosttrib]

MB,

you say, "Although those in the tribulation will not have the comforter dwelling with in them."

Verse please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Linda64,

Jeremiah 30:7 - "Jacob's trouble" already fulfilled during in the time of Daniel's life. After Jeremiah, the prophet warned to them, if they do not repent of their sins, then God will send Babylon to punish on them, and destroy Solomon's temple. It was already fulfilled when Babylon takeovers Israel, and brough them into captivity. Daniel was one of them, who was brought into capitivity.

Then, Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled that they shall be delivery out of it - to set them free from captivity during in time of Ezra and then later Nehemiah.

"Jacob's trouble" have nothing do with supposed future so called, 3 1/2 or 7 year of "Tribulation period" either.

"Jacob's trouble" was speak of Jacob(Israel) was got into trouble with Babylon, many Jews were killed, and brought into captivity. It already fulfilled 2,500 years ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!