Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

[standingfirminChrist]

The "Jacob's trouble" spoken of by the weeping prophet has not yet been fulfilled. He is speaking of a different event.

Notice is last words in verse 7? "but he shall be saved out of it."

"shall be" is a future event, not a past event. Jeremiah was not speaking of that which happened 2,500 years ago.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

Oops, wrong verse.

Jer. 30:7 speaks of Israel shall be bring into capitvity under Babylon, that why, it called, "Jacob's Trouble".

Then, Jer. 30:8 speaks of Israel shall be free from captivity, that was already fulfilled in time of Ezra and then Nehemiah.

Later today, I will type down the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 thru 30, what it is all talking about, so, we shall be able to understand what Jer. 30:7 is all talk about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I disagree, DPT. Jeremiah is speaking constantly in a future tense throughout the chapter. Had he been speaking of the past, he would have used past tense phrasology. He did not.

 

[Linda64]

I was agreeing with you and should have just said Amen.
MB

Sorry, but I wasn't sure. Ok then, AMEN!:thumbs:

 

[Felipe Rios]

I'm really beginning to wonder about my understanding of these times: When I was quite young, I remember Revelations being taught and my pastor presented a pre-trib and post-trib study and heavily leaned towards pre-trib rapture. I did my own study, at that time, within the context of my understanding came across a verse or two which I felt settled the question that the rapture would occur pre-trib. It seems this is the most popular thought of Bible studies and fiction books based upon such.......

But time has passed, and my reading of the Bible has continued: A question rises in me, where in the Bible does it speak of a 'Tribulation Period" and the relationship of the church to it? The disciples asked Jesus about the signs of the end.... and Jesus gave them general and specific signs then comforted them: I don't recall exactly, but something like: in this world you shall have tribulations but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. The early church anticipated the return of Christ at any time..... it was immenent to them even though Christ had just risen a short while before. I can find that the Bible does speak of 7 years of tribulation but it is not clear to me, now, that the rappture preceeds the beginning of this.

The temple must be built and the sacrifices restarted in order for the anti-christ to enter and perform abominations: The church is encouraged to be faithful to the end. It seems to me that the admonition to the church regarding holding fast, being faithful, continue through much of the events during the 7 years of tribulation until just before the great day of the LORD, or the day of wrath.

If this latter is likely, would it change the directions of some ministries in the church? Would we be more motivated to increase personal outreach and collective outreaches, to build up networks and affiliations within our community to include other churches, to develope an interest in the strengths and weaknesses and needs both within each congregation and within the larger community; to develop ministries which are both the Gospel warning and preparation for the hard times ahead. Would we be more interested in building big buildings and encumbering debt upon our members? Would we take more seriously the voluntary identification of the church with the world through corporate license.... or would we start considering ways to 'come out of her, my people'?

But, first, I want to know, are there any others here that have wondered about the timing of the rapture? My hunch is that there is a lot of complacency upon entering into debts and obligations being made to build larger programs and bigger buildings with many thinking and believing 'oh well, if the times change, and it takes a days wage for daily bread, and oil is scarce or protected..... what then...... the church will be raptured out of its obligations and we will be raptured out of our personal debts? And if there are strangers that we have for neighbors, what benefit is it to know them? (I know some of this implies motives that are more carnal than spiritual....... but look inside the church and though many are sincere in faith, many and many more have not the experience or edification for deeper walk of faith.)

Based on my studies, I believe the biblical view is Pre-Wrath.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Based on my studies, I believe the biblical view is Pre-Wrath.

Perhaps. But please look at Matt 24 (MSG). 'His Return will fill the skies. His appearing will be blazing, with splendor and power.' "At that same moment, he'll dispatch his angels with a trumpet-blast summons, pulling in God's chosen from the four winds, from pole to pole."

This is no "secret" Rapture. It comes suddenly. "The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise -- they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the same time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master." (1 Thes 4 MSG).

Before the day of the Master's arrival, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." (1 Thes 2 MSG)

God will protect the Church during the Tribulation. That is what Paul means in Rom 5:9, about "Wrath." Some will be martyred. These are those "beheaded by the ax" under the altar in Revelation.

The "time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation) includes the Jewish believers that enter the Millennium with the Church.

I will seriously consider what you have to say. Remember, I said, "Perhaps." I have an open mind and you might even be able to change it!

 

[MB]

MB said:


So, do I read you right? That there is another way of salvation for those who are saved during the tribulation? By works?

I believe we are all saved by Grace. Just as you do. However you being a Calvinist and me a free will er we are bound to disagree. Man cannot fully submit to Christ with out being willing to do so. There is only one way to Christ that I know of. How ever during the tribulation Those who come to believe in Christ may not have the indwelling of the Spirit if He has been removed. This is a mystery to me but God can be in all places at the same time. It may be that the Spirit can be removed as the restrainer and will stay to indwell those who come to Christ during the tribulation. I can only speculate. We know the one who restrains sin will be removed and only God can control Satan. Satan instigates all sin.
MB

 

[MB]

1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are definitely speaking of a pre-trib rapture of the saints.

Notice: The dead in Christ shall rise first. In Revelation, John wrote that the wicked dead do not rise until 1,000 years after the righteous dead.

If rapture is after the tribulation, then Matthew 13 has it all backwards; for in that chapter, we see the wicked gathered first to be burned (cast into that lake that burneth with fire and brimstone) and then the righteous gathered into His kingdom... In this scenario, the wicked are judged before the saints. Doesn't sound like the rapture spoken of in the epistles of Paul to Corinth and Thessalonica.

According to Revelation and the epistles by Paul, the rapture is pre-trib.

According to Matthew, the event in the thirteenth chapter is speaking of what will happen after the thousand year millenial reign.

During the millenial reign, both wicked and righteous will live on this earth. The difference being the righteous are brought to earth with Christ at His second coming. Revelation declares the righteous will rule over the wicked with a rod of iron during that time.

AMEN

 

[Mr. Davis]

I believe we are all saved by Grace. Just as you do. However you being a Calvinist and me a free will er we are bound to disagree. Man cannot fully submit to Christ with out being willing to do so. There is only one way to Christ that I know of. How ever during the tribulation Those who come to believe in Christ may not have the indwelling of the Spirit if He has been removed. This is a mystery to me but God can be in all places at the same time. It may be that the Spirit can be removed as the restrainer and will stay to indwell those who come to Christ during the tribulation. I can only speculate. We know the one who restrains sin will be removed and only God can control Satan. Satan instigates all sin.
MB

God has to make the spiritually dead alive before they can receive Christ. This is something only God can do. Man is DEAD in sins and trespasses (Eph 2) A dead man can will nothing. Man is reborn (regenerated) and then comes to faith. His Grace was foreordained to the Elect.

I think you have heard this before. I have certainly heard the free-will arguments. Yes, God is in all places at the same time. This is His Omnipresence. He also knows all times and all things. His Omniscience. He is also All-powerful (Omnipotent).

I am interested in what you think about my earlier post: Post-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[MB]

Perhaps. But please look at Matt 24 (MSG). 'His Return will fill the skies. His appearing will be blazing, with splendor and power.' "At that same moment, he'll dispatch his angels with a trumpet-blast summons, pulling in God's chosen from the four winds, from pole to pole."

This is no "secret" Rapture. It comes suddenly. "The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise -- they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the same time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master." (1 Thes 4 MSG).

Before the day of the Master's arrival, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." (1 Thes 2 MSG)

God will protect the Church during the Tribulation. That is what Paul means in Rom 5:9, about "Wrath." Some will be martyred. These are those "beheaded by the ax" under the altar in Revelation.

The "time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation) includes the Jewish believers that enter the Millennium with the Church.

I will seriously consider what you have to say. Remember, I said, "Perhaps." I have an open mind and you might even be able to change it!

 

[MB]

Hi Mr Davis;
I've spoken with many hear that believe as you do. The rapture comes all of a sudden and that is where the secret is. No one knows except the Father when it will happen and that is the secret . The rapture is not the second coming it is an event before the second coming. Christ does not come to earth He sends His angles to gather us and take us to Him. When Christ comes in the second coming He brings all the saints with Him. He can't do that unless we are already with Him. When Christ comes His feet will touch the ground, and until that happens He hasn't come to earth.

There is not one thing that has to happen before the second coming. Eminence is what keeps us all watching for Him. We simply do not know when Christ will return. Those who claim they do are the very ones who embarrass them selves with false predictions. Only the Father knows.

The church will be protected the whole church because we will all be with Christ. Those who are martyred will be those who come to Christ because of the preaching of the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Whether you change your mind because of what I've told you is between you and God. God directs my path and yours to.

May God bless
MB

 

[Mr. Davis]

Hi Mr Davis;
I've spoken with many hear that believe as you do. The rapture comes all of a sudden and that is where the secret is. No one knows except the Father when it will happen and that is the secret . The rapture is not the second coming it is an event before the second coming. Christ does not come to earth He sends His angles to gather us and take us to Him. When Christ comes in the second coming He brings all the saints with Him. He can't do that unless we are already with Him. When Christ comes His feet will touch the ground, and until that happens He hasn't come to earth.

There is not one thing that has to happen before the second coming. Eminence is what keeps us all watching for Him. We simply do not know when Christ will return. Those who claim they do are the very ones who embarrass them selves with false predictions. Only the Father knows.

The church will be protected the whole church because we will all be with Christ. Those who are martyred will be those who come to Christ because of the preaching of the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Whether you change your mind because of what I've told you is between you and God. God directs my path and yours to.

May God bless
MB

Thank you, MB. Do you think it is only the two witnesses that preach? Perhaps, the 144,000 as well?

 

[MB]

Thank you, MB. Do you think it is only the two witnesses that preach? Perhaps, the 144,000 as well?

True. The 144000 will also spread the gospel.
MB

 

[Mr. Davis]

Hi Mr Davis;
I've spoken with many hear that believe as you do.

Actually, I tend toward the Pre-Trib Rapture. I did read, however, a book on all the views. Seemed to be good arguments for pre and post. No longer have the book. Couldn't remember everything about post-. Was what I said pretty much the post- view?

Felipe said he was pre-. The reason I said "Perhaps," about it was because I had read the post view and thought it had equal standing. But your statements agree with Walvoord's. (He was the President of Dallas Theological Seminary and a writer on end times events.) I just remembered his book.

Can you add anything more about pre-? I would like to save what you write.

I appreciate your patient dialogue with me.

Larry

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, I tend toward the Pre-Trib Rapture. I did read, however, a book on all the views. Seemed to be good arguments for pre and post. No longer have the book. Couldn't remember everything about post-. Was what I said pretty much the post- view?

Felipe said he was pre-. The reason I said "Perhaps," about it was because I had read the post view and thought it had equal standing. But your statements agree with Walvoord's. (He was the President of Dallas Theological Seminary and a writer on end times events.) I just remembered his book.

Can you add anything more about pre-? I would like to save what you write.

I appreciate your patient dialogue with me.

Larry

I once was a die hard pre trib rapture person, but after years of reading the bible in regards to this, not seethe scripture evidence more as what we see as being the rapture event is actually the second coming one!Historical premil now.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Yeshua1 wrote:
I once was a die hard pre trib rapture person, but after years of reading the bible in regards to this, not seethe scripture evidence more as what we see as being the rapture event is actually the second coming one!Historical premil now.

So, when does the Rapture take place? Post Trib, when the Lord comes a second time, before the Millennium? What is "Historical premil"?

 

[TCassidy]

What is "Historical premil"?

Most Historic Premills are post trib, but not all. There are some who don't see the Tribulation as being a specific hard and fast 7 years, but as the accumulation of tribulation over the period between the first and second commings.

I am Historic Premil (Chilliast) who leans toward post trib but hopes for pre-trib.

 

[MB]

Actually, I tend toward the Pre-Trib Rapture. I did read, however, a book on all the views. Seemed to be good arguments for pre and post. No longer have the book. Couldn't remember everything about post-. Was what I said pretty much the post- view?

Felipe said he was pre-. The reason I said "Perhaps," about it was because I had read the post view and thought it had equal standing. But your statements agree with Walvoord's. (He was the President of Dallas Theological Seminary and a writer on end times events.) I just remembered his book.

Can you add anything more about pre-? I would like to save what you write.

I appreciate your patient dialogue with me.

Larry

I didn't mean to give you that impression about post trib. Since you've read John Walvoord and you agree with him then we think alike on the subject. I'm not an expert though I can tell you that prophecy ( fulfilled and unfulfilled ) has always been an interest of mine. I've read "The blessed hope and the tribulation","Major Bible Prophecies" and "14 essential keys to understand prophecy the final drama"all By Walvoord. This man is simply brilliant. I've also read several other authors like Hunt, Marrs, Salem, JR Church" and Price all of these hold to the Pre-tribulation view.
MB

 

[Covenanter]

This ancient thread is attracting comments so I'll jump in.

The OP question "Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?" implies a line of interpretation based on the Darby/Scofield system with prophecy fulfilment deferred to a future dispensation with a very complicated scenario as developed in the "Left Behind" fiction popularised by Tim & Jerry. (LaHaye & Jenkins.)

It's popularity was largely due to the free distribution of of Scofield Bibles in the colleges as a readily available one-volume commentary by a writer who was strong on the inspiration & authority of the Bible at a time when modern criticism was undermining the Christian faith.

Before that the basic Christian belief - Roman Catholic, Protestant & Baptist - was the the present Gospel age would continue until Jesus returned in glory for resurrection & judgment, & to establish the New Heaven & New Earth. The interpretation of Revelation was generally the "amillennial view" that it forecast the conflicts of the Gospel age.

The present Israel-centred system that sees a future fulfilment of OT prophecy with the Jews becoming again God's chosen people was largely unknown. While some believers thought there would be a revival among the Jews towards the time of Jesus' return, most denominations saw them as perpetually under God's judgment & to be persecuted.

My understanding is Fulfilment theology, (aka Partial Preterism) that the judgment prophecies focus on AD 70, with only "this generation" that rejected its Messiah suffering the vengeance of God. Both during the 40 years & down the ages, the Gospel has been open to the Jews as well as all nation; that persecution is totally abhorrent & believing Jews & Gentiles are one redeemed people of God.

The whole "Scofield" scenario is false as it focuses on national Israel rather than on Christ, his Gospel & his church.

Worse than that, it has taken over US & to a lesser extent UK politics so that vast amounts of money & armaments - including nuclear weapons - are supplied to Israel & are being used for the subjugation & ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, including Christians. Such gross injustice is absolutely contrary to the teaching of Moses & the prophets.

Micah 2 describes the Israeli settlers:

2:1 Woe to those who devise iniquity,
And work out evil on their beds!
At morning light they practice it,
Because it is in the power of their hand.
2 They covet fields and take them by violence,
Also houses, and seize them.
So they oppress a man and his house,
A man and his inheritance.

6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly, To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?​

 

[TCassidy]

The OP question "Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?" implies a line of interpretation based on the Darby/Scofield system with prophecy fulfilment deferred to a future dispensation with a very complicated scenario as developed in the "Left Behind" fiction popularised by Tim & Jerry. (LaHaye & Jenkins.)

No, it doesn't. Historic Premil was around for 1500 years prior to Darby or Scofield. Historic Premil is non-dispensational and has no connection to Darby or Scofield.