Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

I understand yer mixed up.

 

Keeping from the hour of temptation and persecution is not the same as keeping from tribulation. They are two different words. Temptation and persecution come from satan and his workers. Tribulation is poured out by God.

Rev. 3:10 is a weak argument for post, mid, or pre trib rapture.

 

SFC,

"Hour of temptation" of Rev. 3:10 - Christ doesn't saying it is so called, 'seven year of Tribulation Period'.

Earlier, I already discuss on Rev. 3:10, it taks about facing temptations.

Today, we are facing temptations. Every Christians throughout church history, already faced their temptations.

Temptation is never equal with the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is for punish upon people who not obey the gospel, and not believing on Christ, where they are sent to? To everlasting fire.

Rev. 3:10 is not discuss about wrath of God. It discuss about facing temptations. If we keep His words, God will protect or guard us while we are facing times of temptations, will not allow us fall in sin. Or, if we do not keep His word, then God would not guard us while face temptations, will fall into sin.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

If I'm wrong then can you explain who or what would have the power to hold back sin? Man certainly can't do it by Himself. The one who allows sin in the first place is God. The Holy Spirit is our comforter. What do we need comfort from isn't that called the sin consequince. Sin doesn't only make us deserving of death but it also makes us miserable. It's a very heavy load.

The whole book of revelation is in sequince. The very first event in Revelation is the coming of Christ in the clouds.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

We meet the Lord in the air and are gatherd by angles to meet Him there.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is not the time when the Lords feet will set down on the mountain top, which is why we meet Him in the air. The rapture could happen at any time before the tribulation and there is nothing that says or even suggest the rapture and the second coming happen at the same time. The Bible clearly states that when Christ returns He will return with all His saints.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
If the Lord returns with all His saints that must mean the saints are not here when He returns but are with Him. This wipes out the post trib view

Many claim the mid trib view or before wrath. However it isn't the wrath of God we should look to escape but the temptation that comes on all the world.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
If we are kept from this temptation then we can't be here when it begins and it begins at the beginning of the tribulation. This is what the tribulation is all about and it last for seven years, not 3 and 1/2.
MB

 

Maybe not but Daniel does the tribulation is the last week of years

True we face temptations everyday but for now we are not tempted beyond what we can endure. During the tribulation period men will believe lies to save there own lives. The ultimate test of your faith is will you die for it rather than bow down to another god. During the trib all will worship the beast.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The wrath of God is on those who will not believe but even His wrath isn't as severe as the temptation. This is why all on the earth will be tempted. All those who dwell on earth will have to endure. However we will be kept from it.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
To be kept from it means we won't have to endure it.
MB

 

MB,

Good afternoon.

Many of us are understanding of Rev. 1:7 is clear speak of second advent or coming. Does, John saying this verse is a pretrib coming? If so, how can you be sure that Rev. 1:7 is speaks of pretrib coming?

Notice important things of Rev. 1:7 says, "and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall WAIL of him." This telling us, all races, nations of the world will see Christ appearing in the clouds with power and glory, they shall be mourn because of Christ. This verse is clear refer with Matthew 24:30 says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth MOURN, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matt. 24:30 is clear telling us, when the sign appear in the sky, all people of the world will see Christ appear in the clouds with power and glory, and they shall be mourn at him.

Pretribs saying rapture at the first phase of the "coming" shall be secert.

Secert? Bible doesn't saying. It teaches us, his coming will be visible, every people include all saints will SEE Christ coming in the clouds with power.

Both Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7 are very clear speak of second coming.

You mentioned of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 of rapture. Does Paul saying this event will take place before tribulation? He doesn't say.

You should be aware that both comparing of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and Matthew 24:30-31 are same described.

There are 9 things as list to show us there are comparison of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 & Matt. 24:30-31:

1. 'Coming - Matt. 24:30
1. 'Coming - 1 Thess. 4:15

2. 'heaven' - Matt. 24:30
2. 'heaven' - 1 Thess. 4:16

3. 'clouds' - Matt. 24:30
3. 'clouds' - 1 Thess. 4:17

4. 'angels' - Matt. 24:31
4. 'archangel' - 1 Thess. 4:16(clear in 2 Thess. 1:7-'angels')

5. 'sound' - Matt. 24"31
5. 'voice' & 'shout' - 1 Thess. 4:16

6. 'trumpet' - Matt. 24:31
6. 'trump'- 1 Thess. 4:16( also in 1 Cor. 15:52-'trumpet')

7. 'together' - Matt. 24:31
7. 'together' - 1 Thess. 4:17

8. 'elect' - Matt. 24:31
8. 'In Christ' - 1 Thess. 4:16

9. 'winds' - Matt. 24:31
9. 'air' - 1 Thess. 4:17

Both are very clear same comparison talking about second coming.

1 Thess. 4:15-17 didn't saying when it will take place. But, it was not necesscary for Paul to write down to tell when this event will be take place. Because, Paul and Early Christians already know that Christ taught about coming of Matt. 24:30-31 many years earlier before Paul wrote epistles.

1 Thess. 4:15-17 is not a "new" doctrine to the Early Christians or Church. Because this passage is already mentioned from Christ's words ("by the word of the Lord" - 1 Thess. 4:15).

Also, you can easily find few passages in Paul's epistles of Thessalonians, that he did taught posttribulational coming.

For example, Paul did mentioned of posttribulaitonal coming, find in 2 Thess. 1:4-10; and 2 Thess. 2:1-10.

We know Matthew 24:29-31 is very clear posttribulational coming.

You cannot find anywhere of Christ's teachings in teh four gospels that, Christ did teaching pretribulational coming.

Both Jesus and Paul were not teaching pretribulational coming. Because, this doctrine was not yet exist or developed for many centuries.

The Bible teaches us, there will be the future one final coming at the end of the world, no other hint of different 'coming'.


Rev. 4:1 didn't saying anything about:

Resurrection
Gathering together
Christ ascends
Coming


Rev. 4:1-2 were spoken toward John alone in his vision- "revelation". He saw the angel in the ehaven, told him to come up and to show him the future things. This have do nothing with second coming.

"come hither" find three times in Revelation - 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. All of these have nothing do with 'rapture'. John was only asked to come by angel- alone in his vision.

Also, pretribs saying there is no word- "church" appear in between Revelation chapter 4 to 19, prove that the Church is not on earth, they are gone up to heaven. This is a dangerous saying. For example- book of Esther in the Old Testament, word, "God" is not appear in that whole book of Esther. Doesn't that mean, God is excluded from that book and not being involved with the events of Esther's life? No. God is always presence with us. He saw everything happening.

Also, John didn't saying 'church' is appear in the heaven in between chapter 4 to 19 of Revelation either. So, the question is, do the Church is not shown in the heaven?

No question, church is already in the heaven since Christ's resurrection to today.

Church means God's people. There are millions of saints are already in the heaven with the Lord. They are Church.

The word, 'church' is not find in Revelation chapter19. The question is, isn't the Church involved as the marriage of the Lamb?

We all know Revelation chapter 19 telling us very clear that Church is right in the scene in the heaven, because Church means God's people.

Also, millions of saints are present on the earth facing Satan and persecution of Revelation chapter 13. Church is very clear in the scene of this chapter. Church is same as "saints". Saints is same meaning as Christians. We know that. God only have ONE family, not divided family according dispensationalism doctrine.

Proving Rev. 4:1 of 'pretrib rapture' is fallacy and error.

Rev. 4:1-2 talking about John was called by the angel by through his vision, whilst his spirit was carried up into heaven, to see the things as he written them. That what "revelation" is all about. 'Revelation' means supernatural communicate between God and man by through dreams and visions.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hi DeafPosttrib,
You said,

The secret isn't His coming but rather when is the secret. While men are seeing Christ coming in the clouds with power and glory the angles will be gathering us.
If we are to be left here to endure the tribulation then How is it that Christ returns with all His saints.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
What about immenece? It is clear in this passage that Paul taught immenece in that Rapture could happen at any moment.
This is where men get the idea of a secret coming.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Non believers will not understand what's going on when they see Christ in the clouds. They will be stunned for sure.

You said,

Please look a little closer?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Where is His elect gatherd from? Doesn't it clearly say heaven and not the earth?

I'm sorry I can't get to all the scriptures you've mentioned. At the moment I've envolved in many different things, but I will return. I'm very intrested in what you have to say.
MB

 

sorry wrong

 

If the Lord should come in a pre-tribulation rapture, Deafpostrib will be there directing Him back to heavan since he is the self appointed rapture jello sheriff. I am also sure deafpostrib will inform the Lord that he will call for Him when he is ready.
According to deafpostrib we will go through the tribulation so there is no need to look for the imminent return of the Lord. Deafpostrib has been making these posts for several years each time demmanding you meet his criteria, each time being demmanding,demeaning, and dogmatic. There is no view other then his view, end of story. That is why I don't get into discussions with him.:BangHead:

 

Bro. Bill, the purpose of this board is debate and discussion. It serves no purpose to contend that any subject is not worth debating because it's settled.

I also noticed that you did not speak to his views, but instead made fun of him.

Deaf Post-Trib went into detail to defend his views. He deserves a better response than you gave him.

 

Hi Deafpostrib.
You said,

I have no idea where you get the idea I believe that because I plainly don't. All you need to do is explain,
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

"All His saints" means all of us dead or alive. Where does He gather them from in;Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Doesn't it clearly say heaven and not the earth? The earth is not part of heaven the last time I checked.
MB

 

Well said Tom and on that point we do agree. There is no need to belittle a brother.
MB

 

You've basically answered your own question. We're not talking about holding back sin, we're talking about holding back the Man of Sin. You yourself said the one who allows sin is God. The God who allows sin can certainly hold back the Man of Sin, just as he did Satan in the life of Job.

The idea of the Holy Spirit being taken out of the world is a non-starter. By definition, the HS is omnipresent. It is impossible for him not to be everywhere, therefore impossible that he can be taken out of the world.

I'm not saying that the Restrainer is not the HS. I'm saying there's no explicit scripture which says so.

 

By the way, Bro. Plain Old Bill, I think there is room for a little humor in our discussions.

My own brother-in-law, who is strongly pre-trib gigs me all the time. He told me that when the rapture comes, as he rises up, he'll grab my hand. And he says, "if you still don't believe, I'm gonna let go."

 

Deafpostrib knows me. I was'nt trying to belittle him but get him to gentle out a little. Anybody who discusses pre-trib gets to know the aggressiveness of postrib quickly.:BangHead: I thought I was mixing sarcasm and humor.

 

If you two are friends and are used to friendly jabbing at each other, I think that's fine. I do the same with my close friends as well. I wasn't aware of that friendship. Without knowing that context, I suspect several of us saw your post as a cheap shot.

 

Do you believe that God allows all the sin there could possibly be. Can the world be anymore sinfull than it already is? I believe it can and will be when the restrainer is taken out of the way.

That isn't very good logic. We should all know that it means He will no longer hold sin back.

You're right there is nothing specifically said about who He is. Although who else could it be?. It certainly isn't a man because man is helpless with out God. It isn't the Church that hold's it back because the Church is never referred to as a "HE"
Some say that if the Holy Spirit were to be taken away then no one would be able to be saved. This isn't true because the disciples were saved before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. His being taken out of the way would have to be like a reversal of Pentecost.

MB

 

MB,

there is not a single verse find anywhere in Bible saying that the Holy Spirt will leave earth. If Holy Spirit leaves earth, who will convict people's heart?

Also, Matt. 28:20 is very clear telling us, Christ is always with us till the end of the world. Christ is not presence on earth as in person -visibly. But, He sent the comforter - Holy Spirit to teaching us the things while He is in the heaven same time.

Holy Spirit always with us and the Church till the end of the world.

The end of the world will be occur on the last day of the present age follow at the second advent - John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

2 Thess. 2:6 is not talking about limiting sins and wicked, it talks about holding Satan from being DECEIVE the world. Because, God desires all people to hear the gospel and to be saved.

Rev. 20:1-3 is very clear picture of Satan is now holding back from deceive the nations, while the Church now have the 'key'(Rev. 20:1) to preach the gospel to the world.

Satan have to be submit under God's authority, same as he was submit under God's autority in the book of Job.

Satan went up to heaven, ask God for the permission, if he can touch Job's body. He have to ask God's permit first.

Same with the picture of 2 Thess. 2:6.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. We know Holy Spirit is God as trinity.

Understand, "he" of 2 Thess. 2:6 is speak of satan is now being holding by God for not allow him to deceive the world. Satan is now limited and hold back. Even, I believe God's angels do block or hold Satan from being to be revealed. God doesn't allow Satan to be revealed, because it is not his time yet.

When God sees apostasy('falling away' of 2 Thess. 2:3) becomes worst as climax, it will lead God to become fed up and wrath, then God knows when the right time to come. When the right time comes, then, God will tell Satan, "Now, you can be loosed out, and testing the world and war against the saints." Same with Rev. 17:8; 20:3,7 saying that Satan shall be loose out of the bottomless pit same as 2 Thess. 2:7-"out of the way(midst)", then, Satan will be revealed as transform into visibly man to be act like as God or Messiah to deceive the world, and EVEN, could deceive the elect(saints)-Matt. 24:24 possible too.

Paul tells us, our gathering together at Lord's coming will not come till we must see the revealed of Satan and persecutions first - 2 Thess. 2:3-4.

I believe Rev. 17:8; & Rev. 20:3,7 are support 2 Thess. 2:6-9- speak of Satan is now holding back till the time comes, then he shall be loosed out of the midst, to deceive the world and Christians too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Who convicted men before the Holy Spirit came as a comforter? Being removed from a restraining position doesn't mean completely off the earth.
The Holy Spirit works through those in which He dwells and it is in this manner in which He restrains sin. The Holy Spirit restrains sin through the church or body of Christ.
An example;
If you were to see a rape of a child about to happen wouldn't you try to stop it? I would. I would rather die than to let a little one be hurt in such a way. You see we play a part in the restraining of sin.

I agree Christ is always with us but that in no way means that we will have to live through the trib

Isn't deceiving the whole world sin?

Yet there is not one scripture when read in context that supports the church going through the tribulation. You still refuse to acknowledge immenece,
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
The post trib view claims to know when Christ will come, at the end of the tribulation. Where is the immenece.
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming. These two events is what you need to consider. We have no immenece and the coming of Christ is not a surprize because it wil be easy to figure out. This is the problem with post trib.
MB

 

1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are definitely speaking of a pre-trib rapture of the saints.

Notice: The dead in Christ shall rise first. In Revelation, John wrote that the wicked dead do not rise until 1,000 years after the righteous dead.

If rapture is after the tribulation, then Matthew 13 has it all backwards; for in that chapter, we see the wicked gathered first to be burned (cast into that lake that burneth with fire and brimstone) and then the righteous gathered into His kingdom... In this scenario, the wicked are judged before the saints. Doesn't sound like the rapture spoken of in the epistles of Paul to Corinth and Thessalonica.

According to Revelation and the epistles by Paul, the rapture is pre-trib.

According to Matthew, the event in the thirteenth chapter is speaking of what will happen after the thousand year millenial reign.

During the millenial reign, both wicked and righteous will live on this earth. The difference being the righteous are brought to earth with Christ at His second coming. Revelation declares the righteous will rule over the wicked with a rod of iron during that time.