Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism

While the world will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, individuals will still hafta make their personal commitment to Him, I believe, during the millenium.

And the temple where the AOD will occur will be the one that the Jews will soon build in Jerusalem. It won't be the millenial temple, which, I believe, will be Jesus' "Capitol".

The new Jewish temple will be their attempt to continue the Old Covenant. Even now, they're breeding the animals to be used in its ceremonies. However, this won't be a TRUE "temple of God", as JESUS will be left outta the equation. However, mosta the world will view it as such.

Back to the millenuim. Unbelievers will be few & far-between until near its end, when Satan is freed from "the abyss" and once again works his deceptions among men, organizing a human rebellion against Jesus' rule. And you know how that'll end.

As for the millenial temple, I don't know what'll become of it, as Scripture doesn't say. But Scripture DOES say there'll be no temple in the New Jerusalem.

 

IF this is indeed the Millennium, as some hold it to be, than Jesus is doing a poor job as the King, as we still have diseases, wars, famines, isis, nukes etc!

 

Personally, I dismiss all preterism as nonsense. No pret can ***PROVE*** even one of his pronouncements.

 

How do you prove your futurist millennial temple views? They certainly haven't happened, nor will we see them in the Gospel age.

I personally dismiss such views as worse than nonsense, as they move Gospel age prophecy to some future dispensation & rob us of vital Scripture.

 

...the violence done to scripture is one of the main reasons that I detest Dispensationalism.

 

Of course, neither of us can prove future events except by Scripture, but we can certainly prove PAST events by simple history. And, since preterism lacks that proof, it's false.

Now, it's evident that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium, as Rev. 20:9 mentions the camp of the saints & the "beloved city", which would only be Jerusalem.

That's why I believe Zeke's temple will be a millenial one.

 

No. It is evident that the beloved city is heavenly, spiritual, not earthly. Rev. 21 follows Rev. 20. See Galatians 4, Hebrews 11 & 12. We are citizens of the Jerusalem above.

How can there be future millennial animal sacrifices for sin? See Hebrews 10. Jesus gave us the Lord's Supper as a memorial until he comes.

Heb. 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.​

 

But it WILL become earthly.

Rev. 21: 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
[/I]

Most, but not ALL, will be Christians. I'm going by what SCRIPTURE sez will be occurring, not man's guesses.

 

That future is the NH&NE - and it is reasonable to believe that the New Jerusalem, like the temple of God, comprises the redeemed people of God, not stones, bricks & timber.

Please read the context of the Scripture you quote:

Rev. 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”​

I presume you are thinking in terms of the great rebellion after the millennium when there will be vast numbers of unbelievers.

Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

We know that Satan is in the Abyss, BUT
What are the rebels doing the supposed wonderful millennium? And where is Jesus? And where are the righteous?

Rev. 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.​

The flood did not change man's nature - Noah was saved by grace, & lived by faith. (Gen. 6, Heb. 11) He preached righteousness. (2 Peter 2) The post-flood narrative makes it clear that man was generally wicked. Abram was called to be the focus first to become a nation, then a blessing to all families of the earth.

We see the activity of Satan - the old serpent - in the opening chapters of Genesis, & in Job, but his activity among the godless nations is not spelled out. They are deceived & living in sin, worshipping invented gods, & waging wars. That state of affairs continued throughout the OT, with God's dealings with Abram's descendants being recorded, being given laws & sacrifices, & a centre for worship, together with the promise of a Messiah. The promise of deliverance of both Israel & the nations is clearly stated.

e.g. Isaiah 49:5 “And now the Lord says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”​

Following Calvary & his resurrection, Jesus commissions his Apostles to take the Gospel to the end of the earth.

Acts 1:7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”​

That is a declared war on what has been the usurper Satan's domain:

Luke 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”​

Jesus has the victory over Satan:

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.​

In the providence of God, the casting out of Satan does not result in universal salvation. The world's population is still deceived. What is universal is the command to repent as the Gospel goes out to the nations. We see that during the millennium John sees the souls of the faithful:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

These are not restored to earth bodily. They are souls who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What is the first resurrection that protects us from hell, the second death? What did Jesus teach?

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

Peter teaches that the millennium is an indeterminate period that will end with the coming of the day of God ... and the new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. -

2 Peter 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

We are living in the millennium & looking forward to the day of God, the glorious return of our Lord & Saviour.

 

And the Scripture says it'll be a city. John was sent to measure it. Elsewhere, Jesus said, "I go to prepare a PLACE for you."[/I]​

/i]

Of course. Scripture plainly sez "when the thousand years are finished...".​

The rebels will be looking to undermine Jesus' rule.
Jesus will be in Jerusalem.
The righteous will be all over earth, except the souls of the righteous who've previously passed away will be with Jesus.[/I]​

The first permanent resurrection of men will occur when Jesus returns.(His own resurrection was the first permanent one.)

Obviously, the events of 2 Perer 3 have NOT yet occurred.

And the millenium will NOT begin til Jesus returns & takes over all govt.

And none of these events will occur til the antichrist & his deputy the false prophet come to power.

 

A further detailed reply would be futile so I'll simply say:
Jesus assured his disciples:

Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.​

To which Peter, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit adds:

Acts 3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
​

Your teaching, that Jesus needs another future dispensation to finish what he finished at Calvary & to fulfill OT prophecies which are being fulfilled in these days finds no place in the New Covenant Scriptures.

You should read the OT with New Covenant understanding, NOT invent a further dispensation to fulfill the OT prophecies you consider unfulfilled.

 

The eschatological prophecies are NOT yet fulfilled; it's simple as THAT!

They are completely absent from world history.

These are HUGE, WORLD-CHANGING EVENTS. History would NOT had missed them had they already occurred.

These huge gaps between preterist pronouncements and history/reality leaves preterism high-n-dry, with NO sustaining facts. That's why I say it's false & phony as a Ford Corvette. Preterists simply CANNOT PROVE any part of their doctrine.

I suggest you heed your own advice & read the Old Testament with New Covenant eyes. The whole Bible is Jesus-centric, and is about Him.

Right now, the world goes on as usual. The fullness of the gentiles is still going on, as 99.9999% of all Christians, new or veteran, are gentiles. The beast has not yet come, nor the great trib nor the other eschatological events accompanying the beast. That's a simple matter of FACT AND REALITY.

 

Im new here, But my goodness, Robycop you can't argue futurism. Matthew 24 is about the fall of jerusalem in AD 70. I don't see how the Disciples were asking about his second coming, if they didn't even know he was leaving yet. You pull fantasy out of thin air to throw an imaginary antichrist, and this 7 year Tribulation into this chapter. You can't get that Idea from just the Bible. I have more faith then you do, because Jesus was CORRECT in what he said, this generation will not pass until this happens....What happens? When not one stone is still standing, it happened in THAT generation.


"The beast has not yet come, nor the great trib nor the other eschatological events accompanying the beast. That's a simple matter of FACT AND REALITY".....Funny they didn't know about this until the 1800s when this idea started. Are you going to be the first one to hide in the mountains of Judea when this "great tribulation" happens? You know what happened during the fall of Jerusalem? The christians escaped and hid the mountains of Judea....... Funny how history has a weird thing of proving this chapter right.

 

They asked Jesus about what would be happening then, and what would be happening at His second coming. Jesus answered both questions, as he describe the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. AND the events at time of His second coming. NOT the same event!

 

Welcome to the forum. The problem is:
do we believe in the fulfilment of prophecy as guided by the inspired New Covenant writers
or
do we insist on literal interpretation (fulfilment) of old covenant prophecy independently of the New.

 

Lol, bingo! Robycop loves the sensationalism of Dispensationalism.

Amen! and Amen! You believe Christ's words concerning His imminent return, but not the sensationalists like robycop that insist that Christ's words such as "must shortly come to pass", or "the time is at hand", or "I come quickly", etc., means thousands of years and still waiting.

Excellent post brother.

 

No they did not, They did not yet believe he was leaving, if they doubted his death and resurrection until it happened, why would they ask about a SECOND coming when they didn't know he was leaving to heaven?

I believe the they were mistaken thinking the fall of the temple was the "end of the world/age" and in verse 36 he corrects them without explaining to them and he may be talking about the end of the world. He gives all these events leading up the AD 70,but in verse 36 he says BUT OF THAT DAY.......what day? "end of the world", know one knows, there won't be any signs, any warning, no tribulation no antichrist, nothing, matthew 24:38
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

I highly doubt people are all going to turn stupid and life will be normal, if a beast is ruling as GOD in the middle east, and there are bowls of wrath falling from the sky.... come on, if that was all happening, wouldn't you say....wow something must be happening....

 

OR
do we hold that AD 70 meant that ALL prophecy was fulfilled, and no more left to do, so no second coming ?

 

The second coming is still yet future, so why would there not be future prophecy yet to be fulfilled?

 

I do not hold to a strict Dispy understanding of prophecy anymore, but still do see a literal fulfillment of many yet to come!