Well, I suppose your admitting your own inability.
I typically get 5hat from non-calls.
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Salvation by the work of attaining God’s attention
- Thread starter agedman
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I typically get 5hat from non-calls.
You have a point?
How answering your own question is derailing?
Seems to be exactly the topic ask!
And you are still avoiding the question
He can't. He knows it is an illogical question.
The teacher does not ask a question of the student that the teacher does not have the answer.
It would seem that one who desires to teach a more excellent answer, than the one I have given from Scripture and practice, is actually floundering in the abode of the unlearned.
For rather than demonstrate a greater understanding and substantive thinking which all could recognize as clearly drawn from the truth of practice and Scripture principles allowing a great feast, the empty noise of hollow pots is leaving one with the sense that there is nothing to truly offer that is more satisfying. Such is vanity. A pride that is shameful.
I see we have yet another fictional theology thread from Agedman. He claims salvation by grace through our faith is a works based salvation. But scripture is clear, we are saved by grace through faith. Thus our faith in Christ as credited by God provides access to the grace in which we stand. Romans 5:2
No verse says or suggests we are saved by grace, then given faith. That is false theology.
The order of salvation was mentioned. It was implied that the order is not clearly given in scripture.
When did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb? Before creation or after creation? See 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was foreknown before creation. Now do you choose a Redeemer without a plan to Redeem? Nope. So before Creation, God had a Redemption plan that included His Redeemer and as a target group, those to be redeemed. So we have the Plan, the Redeemer and then the target group of the Redemption plan, 1, 2 and 3. Ephesians 1:4 supports this view, God chose us corporately (those to be redeemed) when He chose Christ individually to be the Redeemer, thus He chose us in Him.
Paul tells us the Redemption plan included three other features, those redeemed would be holy and blameless before Him, the redeemed would be predestined to adoption (the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming - Romans 8:23) and the redeemed are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so Christ would be the firstborn of many siblings. (Romans 8:28)/
The above Redemption Plan is presented plainly in scripture, and their should be absolutely no debate.
No verse says or suggests we are saved by grace, then given faith. That is false theology.
The order of salvation was mentioned. It was implied that the order is not clearly given in scripture.
When did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb? Before creation or after creation? See 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was foreknown before creation. Now do you choose a Redeemer without a plan to Redeem? Nope. So before Creation, God had a Redemption plan that included His Redeemer and as a target group, those to be redeemed. So we have the Plan, the Redeemer and then the target group of the Redemption plan, 1, 2 and 3. Ephesians 1:4 supports this view, God chose us corporately (those to be redeemed) when He chose Christ individually to be the Redeemer, thus He chose us in Him.
Paul tells us the Redemption plan included three other features, those redeemed would be holy and blameless before Him, the redeemed would be predestined to adoption (the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming - Romans 8:23) and the redeemed are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so Christ would be the firstborn of many siblings. (Romans 8:28)/
The above Redemption Plan is presented plainly in scripture, and their should be absolutely no debate.
If my answer was not that desired, you as one who desires to teach the truth are obliged to present what you consider the acceptable answer.
There is no avoidance, but that being done by your own elusion that what I offered was not meeting some undetermined standard.
Is your desire for the correct answer, in which you only know and can approve, clearly an example of the quoted view of a works based salvation?
Certainly, it would seem that you are actually engaging in an example of that the same by claiming I am practicing avoidance.
I am pictured as the one one utterly poor, totally unlearned, completely incompetent, and devoid of learning or skill, yet, am required, by my own efforts, to satisfactorily innately generate to some undetermined level of acceptability that meets your approval some unknown and unconsidered answer. Resulting in your crediting me with having answered your question.
Is this not exactly the conflict of quoting one who basses salvation on human effort?
Are you not demanding from me what only you have determined is acceptable as an answer?
Is that your point?
Are you actually showing the fallacy of the statement by Van?
So, Van, your view is that faith is innate, and must be self generated to some level of acceptability resulting in some offering in which obliges God to credit that person as righteous?
If the Faith is innate, then why does the Scripture declare that faith is linked to hearing the Scriptures? (Romans 10).
If one already posses the faith, then there is no validity in the Scriptures you have given.
Yet another false charge, another misrepresentation, another dodge. No quote will be forthcoming. I said no one comes to Christ unless drawn (attracted not compelled) by the Father. So why the falsehood?
Folks, pay no attention to this false theology. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand.; God credits our faith as righteousness to us. No verse says or suggests we are saved then given faith.
Is God "obliged" to keep His promise, "everyone believing into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life. Yes, because God cannot lie, He is faithful, He keeps His promises.
I do say fallen unregenerate "men of flesh" do have the limited spiritual ability to understand and receive the milk of the gospel (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) But unless the gospel is presented, there would be nothing to put faith in. I said our faith is as a filthy rag to God, worthless and without merit.
Again, pay no attention to Agedman, he makes one false claim after another, as demonstrated above.
The order of salvation was mentioned. It was implied that the order is not clearly given in scripture.
When did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb? Before creation or after creation? See 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was foreknown before creation. Now do you choose a Redeemer without a plan to Redeem? Nope. So before Creation, God had a Redemption plan that included His Redeemer and as a target group, those to be redeemed. So we have the Plan, the Redeemer and then the target group of the Redemption plan, 1, 2 and 3. Ephesians 1:4 supports this view, God chose us corporately (those to be redeemed) when He chose Christ individually to be the Redeemer, thus He chose us in Him.
Paul tells us the Redemption plan included three other features, those redeemed would be holy and blameless before Him, the redeemed would be predestined to adoption (the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming - Romans 8:23) and the redeemed are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so Christ would be the firstborn of many siblings. (Romans 8:28)/
The above Redemption Plan is presented plainly in scripture, and their should be absolutely no debate.
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Here is THE TRUTH!
Van posted:
“The ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, made righteous, blameless and perfect. Thus the justification occrs after God puts a believer into Christ.”
written by Van in this link
So, who is presenting a “false charge?”
Van, it is you who by your own words are supporting a works based salvation.
Let me give you some help.
Repent.
Van, do you not know that the Scriptures teach Christ slain before creation of this existing world, and as Peter states that it was manifested in our time? According to how God determined it to be revealed to the creation.
There is no time line with God, Van. He not only is present now, present throughout, but is the one who establishes the seasons so that humankind can have a point of reference from which to express the events that impact them.
The sacrifice of the cross took place in our time scheme, but not confined to that time scheme.
Do you not understand that is why the Scriptures can with total validity state that people are chosen in him BEFORE the creation? (Ephesians 1 AND Romans 8)
How then is your scheme valid?
It is not
I have not lied, not been untruthful, and anyone may search all my posts on any thread for any documentation they desire.
Your posts present an alternative narative as IS documented by your own words condemning you.
One word, Van, “repent.”
There is no time line with God, Van. He not only is present now, present throughout, but is the one who establishes the seasons so that humankind can have a point of reference from which to express the events that impact them.
The sacrifice of the cross took place in our time scheme, but not confined to that time scheme.
Do you not understand that is why the Scriptures can with total validity state that people are chosen in him BEFORE the creation? (Ephesians 1 AND Romans 8)
How then is your scheme valid?
It is not
I have not lied, not been untruthful, and anyone may search all my posts on any thread for any documentation they desire.
Your posts present an alternative narative as IS documented by your own words condemning you.
One word, Van, “repent.”
Both "believe" and "repent" are verbs.
Both "believe" and "repent" are verbs.
So are sit and sleep.
And grace is a gift, not a reward.
They are works of God the Holy Spirit wrought in a former sinner's heart. Eph. 2:8-9 reveal that.
So? Your point is?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1 YLT
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath; Rom 5:9 YLT
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19
Relative to being made righteous, does not, in his blood, by faith and the obedience of one, all have to be the same?
Does not, in his blood, mean, obedience of faith?
? Whose blood, whose obedience, whose faith?
Romans 5:2 KJV By whom (Jesus Christ) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶνθεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
What does, faith, believing that comes from within our carnal minds have to do with any of the above???????????????
Is not what is written above actually expressed in the following? -
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby The soul, life of the flesh of Jesus Christ that was in his blood predicated upon, obedience of faith?
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath; Rom 5:9 YLT
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19
Relative to being made righteous, does not, in his blood, by faith and the obedience of one, all have to be the same?
Does not, in his blood, mean, obedience of faith?
? Whose blood, whose obedience, whose faith?
Romans 5:2 KJV By whom (Jesus Christ) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶνθεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
What does, faith, believing that comes from within our carnal minds have to do with any of the above???????????????
Is not what is written above actually expressed in the following? -
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby The soul, life of the flesh of Jesus Christ that was in his blood predicated upon, obedience of faith?
My point is that works are, indeed, at work in salvation, but not our works, God's. That is the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9. Grace, faith, and salvation are all the gift of God. Christ's "work" was His payment for sin through His death on the Cross. This gift is given to those who were chosen (predestined) from eternity (Eph. 1:4). This is only possible if sinful man is utterly sinful, i.e. dead in sin (Eph. 2:1). If sinful man retains any disposition towards good, any moral free agency, then he can claim participation in his own salvation (Synergism).
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