Retribultion Theology

[Yeshua1]

The proper viewpoint of Isaiah 53 is exactly the context Isaiah 53 provides. You change the text to read differently to suit your tradition.

And I don't care if Wright also rejects the idea God looked upon Christ as evil. He is correct in his conclusion but that has nothing to do with me.

I am beginning to think you have a man-crush on N.T. Wright because you always seem to run back to him.

God looked upon Jesus as being the sin bearer, as being at that point one who knew no sin becoming sin for us!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, it actually is a fact. Those who look back through time point to "aspects" that comprise PSA as articulated by Calvin. As J.I. Packer points out, the "elements were there". But where Calvin got it wrong (and where PSA gets it wrong) is not in the elements but the context, which was not there until articulated into PSA.

To use your inelegant phrase, you seem to have a man-crush on Calvin. PSA was well-known among the ECFs and accepted by Luther and others as well as Calvin. What Calvin did was to write more copiously on the subject, as he did on many others.

But none of that matters. The Lord Jesus died in my place, bearing my sins, and if He didn't do the same for you, you are still in your sins.

 

[JonC]

To use your inelegant phrase, you seem to have a man-crush on Calvin. PSA was well-known among the ECFs and accepted by Luther and others as well as Calvin. What Calvin did was to write more copiously on the subject, as he did on many others.

But none of that matters. The Lord Jesus died in my place, bearing my sins, and if He didn't do the same for you, you are still in your sins.

You got me. I do like Calvin, especially his works on prayer. One of my favorites. I even grew a beard at one time.

If by PSA you mean that Jesus bore our sins and by His stripes we are healed, then yes. I believe PSA too.

But if you mean God poured out His wrath upon Christ and punished Him, Jesus experiencing what the lost will at Judgment, then no. That is unknown until Calvin.

I think you are at your shell game again - "look, he said Jesus died for our sins so that means he believes God was angry at His Son and separated from Him for 3 hours and punished Him with the punishment of the sins of the elect and....it's PSA). You assume too much.

 

[JonC]

God looked upon Jesus as being the sin bearer, as being at that point one who knew no sin becoming sin for us!

Duh. He made Himself a guilt offering for our redemption.

My argument is against your tradition, not Scripture. I am addressing what your tradition adds to Scripture (the context you place it in).

 

[TCassidy]

sigh, I get tired of seeing people claim the view they are against are merely recent inventions. Its a weak argument and is in no way evidence of right or wrong regardless if true or not.

Amen! Amen! Like saying Particular Redemption originated with Calvin. Or even with Augustine.

 

[JonC]

Amen! Amen! Like saying Particular Redemption originated with Calvin. Or even with Augustine.

No. That one originated with Jesus, who lay down His life for the church, and was made popular by Mr. Spurgeon.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My argument is against your tradition

No. Our argument is against your tradition. Nya! Nya! Nya! This is a great way of arguing.

 

[JonC]

No. Our argument is against your tradition. Nya! Nya! Nya! This is a great way of arguing.

What??? PSA as we just agreed on???

You can, BTW, ask my to defend my position. It won't hurt my feelings at all.

On what part of my view of the atonement do you disagree?

 

[Yeshua1]

You got me. I do like Calvin, especially his works on prayer. One of my favorites. I even grew a beard at one time.

If by PSA you mean that Jesus bore our sins and by His stripes we are healed, then yes. I believe PSA too.

But if you mean God poured out His wrath upon Christ and punished Him, Jesus experiencing what the lost will at Judgment, then no. That is unknown until Calvin.

I think you are at your shell game again - "look, he said Jesus died for our sins so that means he believes God was angry at His Son and separated from Him for 3 hours and punished Him with the punishment of the sins of the elect and....it's PSA). You assume too much.

Jesus bore our sins on our behalf while upon the Cross, so whatever we would experience apart from his death he had to face!

 

[Yeshua1]

What??? PSA as we just agreed on???

You can, BTW, ask my to defend my position. It won't hurt my feelings at all.

On what part of my view of the atonement do you disagree?

The one where Jesus did not actually suffer what lost sinners will when judged for their own sins by Holy God!

 

[JonC]

Jesus bore our sins on our behalf while upon the Cross, so whatever we would experience apart from his death he had to face!

Again, this is a theory. Scripture says we will not face in Christ what we would have without Him. You add that He experienced a Christlessness to make that possible.

 

[Yeshua1]

Amen! Amen! Like saying Particular Redemption originated with Calvin. Or even with Augustine.

Or that NONE before calvin spoke on Pst!

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, this is a theory. Scripture says we will not face in Christ what we would have without Him. You add that He experienced a Christlessness to make that possible.

Did jesus pay for sins or not? Was God owned a sin debt, if yes, does that not include His wrath being charged against those who violated his Law?

 

[JonC]

Did jesus pay for sins or not? Was God owned a sin debt, if yes, does that not include His wrath being charged against those who violated his Law?

Ahhh!!! There it is!

No. God was not "owed a debt". He is Creator God. Man cannot create in God a debt. The "wages of sin is death but the gift of God eternal life in Christ Jesus".

Where did you get the idea God was shackled along side man with the burden of such injury, one He had to collect in order to freely save sinful man? From whence came that idea of divine justice??? Certainty not from Scripture. So where?

 

[JonC]

The one where Jesus did not actually suffer what lost sinners will when judged for their own sins by Holy God!

We already established this is NOT what PSA means. PSA, per @Martin Marprelate 's quote of Martyr.

‘If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up"

NO-ONE is arguing against the Father wishing His Christ to take upon the curses of all for the whole human family. This is a given and you are playing a shell game once again (for you already affirmed what Martian has yet again supplied).

We all believe PSA, or so you seem to say.....sometimes....if it suits you....

 

[Yeshua1]

Ahhh!!! There it is!

No. God was not "owed a debt". He is Creator God. Man cannot create in God a debt. The "wages of sin is death but the gift of God eternal life in Christ Jesus".

Where did you get the idea God was shackled along side man with the burden of such injury, one He had to collect in order to freely save sinful man? From whence came that idea of divine justice??? Certainty not from Scripture. So where?

You then deny that God in His holiness cannot and does not judge sin that happens by others in his creation?

 

[Yeshua1]

We already established this is NOT what PSA means. PSA, per @Martin Marprelate 's quote of Martyr.

‘If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up"

NO-ONE is arguing against the Father wishing His Christ to take upon the curses of all for the whole human family. This is a given and you are playing a shell game once again (for you already affirmed what Martian has yet again supplied).

We all believe PSA, or so you seem to say.....sometimes....if it suits you....

PST includes within it also the concept of the wrath of God being part of the redemption process....

 

[Yeshua1]

We already established this is NOT what PSA means. PSA, per @Martin Marprelate 's quote of Martyr.

‘If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up"

NO-ONE is arguing against the Father wishing His Christ to take upon the curses of all for the whole human family. This is a given and you are playing a shell game once again (for you already affirmed what Martian has yet again supplied).

We all believe PSA, or so you seem to say.....sometimes....if it suits you....

This is what it does mean!
https://www.the-highway.com/cross_Packer.htm

 

[JonC]

You then deny that God in His holiness cannot and does not judge sin that happens by others in his creation?

Not at all. I already said that the wages of sin is death. You seem to be jumping around here. What I said was that PSA is, per you and Martin, broad when you want it to be but narrow when it pleases you. This is dishonest.

PST includes within it also the concept of the wrath of God being part of the redemption process....

Sure, if you are talking about Christ becoming a curse for the human family. You two have already settled on Martyr holding to PSA so you can't go beyond that. PSA includes Martyr, Luther, Wright, and Calvin. Or were you being dishonest before?

This is what it does mean!
https://www.the-highway.com/cross_Packer.htm

Too late to change your mind. It only means a belief that Christ died for mankind, bore man's sins and by His stripes we are healed.

You wanted to make it an inclusive doctrine so there you go. It's meaningless in terms of distinction because all theories fall within its borders. You are, in other words, adrift.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We already established this is NOT what PSA means. PSA, per @Martin Marprelate 's quote of Martyr.

‘If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up"

NO-ONE is arguing against the Father wishing His Christ to take upon [Him] the curses of all for the whole human family. This is a given and you are playing a shell game once again (for you already affirmed what Martian has yet again supplied).

We all believe PSA, or so you seem to say.....sometimes....if it suits you....

You accused me of not giving the context of the Justin Martyr quote, and then you do the same.
But there was something else that Trypho was concerned about that you seem to have forgotten. Our Lord was actually crucified. He didn't just take our sins, pack them up and go back to heaven with them; He was crucified, a death that, apart from being horrifically agonizing, was particularly shameful to Jews. He took upon Him the curses for the whole human family and paid the penalty for them. If it were not so, why was He crucified?

You can, BTW, ask my to defend my position. It won't hurt my feelings at all.

Why do you feel you have to ask my permission? Just get on with it.