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Is God Sovereign?
- Thread starter thatbrian
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I know you want some simple and brief, but that's difficult to do when you're discussing God's sovereignty. The next best thing I can do is point you to chapter 3 of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith which covers God's decree:
Chapter 3, 1689 LBC
Chapter 3, 1689 LBC
That's a great reply. It's simple and brief enough for me.
This alone answers teh question: "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."
And for the "Where's the verses?" critics, they are at the bottom of each paragraph in the chapter.
I love the, "where's the verse" folks. Their theology, like the note inside of a fortune cookie, comes in one-sentence bits. The trouble is, they have no underlying framework in which to understand those tiny bits, as most of them ignore 2/3 of the Bible, aka, the Old Testament.
Where's the verse that says that I should be served grape juice at the celebration of the Lord's Supper?
I agree. You have to be able to understand what is Scripture and what framework or presuppositions you bring into Scripture to make sense of it all. Some seem to bring in more, some less, but the authority remains Scripture itself -not the context men provide. Some are weighed down by the things they carry, and unfortunately the "things they carried were largely determined by necessity."I love the, "where's the verse" folks. Their theology, like the note inside of a fortune cookie, comes in one-sentence bits. The trouble is, they have no underlying framework in which to understand those tiny bits, as most of them ignore 2/3 of the Bible, aka, the Old Testament.
Where's the verse that says that I should be served grape juice at the celebration of the Lord's Supper?
Even though God gave man a choice He is still Sovereign because it was His idea.
MB
God being Sovereign does not mean that men have no choice in there own destiny. We are invited to come to Him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Notice the Bible does not say we can't come to Him only Calvinism claims this. All men are drawn to Him.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
If all men are drawn all men can be saved. And God is still Sovereign.
MB
How?
Are you familiar with John, 6:44? "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
1) Do you know what the word, "draw" means in the original language?
2) Do you realize that "all" is used in a few different ways? You and I use it many ways, ourselves. For instance, we sat by the phone "all day". . .
The Bible shows a few examples of when "all" doesn't mean, without exception. Here are a few examples:
Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Acts 22:15 For thou [Paul] shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of ALL MEN for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL MEN come to him.
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for ALL hold John as a prophet.
2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of ALL MEN
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of ALL MEN.18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with ALL MEN.
Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto ALL MEN. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto ALL MEN, as their’s also was.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN
3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of ALL MEN, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for ALL MEN glorified God for that which was done.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to ALL MEN, as every man had need.
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, ALL MEN will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Acts 22:15 For thou [Paul] shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of ALL MEN for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL MEN come to him.
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for ALL hold John as a prophet.
2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of ALL MEN
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of ALL MEN.18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with ALL MEN.
Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto ALL MEN. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto ALL MEN, as their’s also was.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN
3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of ALL MEN, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for ALL MEN glorified God for that which was done.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to ALL MEN, as every man had need.
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, ALL MEN will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Where's the verse that says that I should be served grape juice at the celebration of the Lord's Supper?
Why not present a verse that states one should serve strong drink at the celebration?
I for one do not consider Christ took any intoxicant to drink.
You may think that foolish and scoff, but there is no Scripture to support your thinking, but certain warnings concerning intoxicants.
This thread is not the place to debate this issue, but it was important that Baptists in the US (especially SBC) do have a history of standing against intoxicants. I personally understand and embrace that thinking.
You guys really need to stop taking this verse out of context. The context is not the salvation of all men it is the drawing of the disciples during Jesus' earthly ministry. Jesus often worked to hide His identity from stubborn Jews:
Mark 3:12;8:30; 9:9;
Matthew 16:20
Jesus also spoke of blinding the eyes of some of the Jews. Question: what purpose does it serve to put a blindfold on someone who is already dead and completely incapable of understanding who He is?
One of the disconnects of any scheme seems to revolve around this question of "the drawing."
Such verses as:
"I will draw all men..."
"... not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
cannot be read and one hold to a hyper-calvinist view.
On the other hand, neither can verses such as:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs..."
"... having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..."
be conformed to the typical hyper-arminian view.
So what Scripture indicates the final arbiter in this matter?
I guess you will have to ask an arminian?
The famous no-answer answer.
Yes I am. Are you aware I answered your question before you asked it. Answer mat 11:28
QUOTE="thatbrian, post: 2367899, member: 9301"]
1) Do you know what the word, "draw" means in the original language?
2) Do you realize that "all" is used in a few different ways? You and I use it many ways, ourselves. For instance, we sat by the phone "all day". . .
The Bible shows a few examples of when "all" doesn't mean, without exception. Here are a few examples:
Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Acts 22:15 For thou [Paul] shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of ALL MEN for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL MEN come to him.
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for ALL hold John as a prophet.
2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of ALL MEN
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of ALL MEN.18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with ALL MEN.
Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto ALL MEN. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto ALL MEN, as their’s also was.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN
3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of ALL MEN, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for ALL MEN glorified God for that which was done.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to ALL MEN, as every man had need.
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, ALL MEN will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Acts 22:15 For thou [Paul] shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of ALL MEN for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL MEN come to him.
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for ALL hold John as a prophet.
2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of ALL MEN
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of ALL MEN.18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with ALL MEN.
Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto ALL MEN. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto ALL MEN, as their’s also was.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN
3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of ALL MEN, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for ALL MEN glorified God for that which was done.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to ALL MEN, as every man had need.
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, ALL MEN will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Don't you think that God being perfect, and is able to communicate what, He wants us to understand?. Calvinist always want to argue the meaning of words because what scripture says doesn't fit there unprovable doctrines.
MB
They have their own dicitonary. Here's some selections from the Calvinist Dictionary
All: The elect
Calvinism: The gospel.
Call (effectual): to be irresistibly dragged
Call (general): God’s justification to condemn the reprobate.
Draw all Men: Regenerate the Elect
Everyone: The elect
Faith: A work that gives pride to Arminians.
Foreknow: To decree or to love, absolutely nothing to do with knowing before
Free Will: Something that can’t exist because it would make God helpless if true.
Free Will (2): Something you receive after God determines you should have it.
World: The elect
There is nothing in this list that is true, and that says a lot about the poster.
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