John 3:16

Believing Israel was elect and the Church was grafted in (Romans 11). Those who believe are the elect.
Those who do not believe continue with God's wrath upon them (John 3).

What Scriptures do you have that directly contradict those above?

 

The "reformed" teaching on election is what I am speaking about, which is no where in the Teachings of the Holy Bible. As if God chooses some to eternal life, while damning the rest to eternal punishment, even though Jesus' death was indeed for the whole human race, which includes EVERYONE!

 

You didn't provide any Scriptures to contradict what I have said.

Also, you are very hard of hearing. The thread is now at 4 pages. I don't think you need to hear from anyone else.
TCassidy is a good brother and a friend. You alienated him. I will not talk to you any further.

 

I don't associate with proud, rude and arrogant people. The Bible says that we are to respect each other and have humility with each other, and show real love and care. He is your friend, that's good for you. Maybe you guys are the same!

 

I don't understand this. You say that the doctrine of election as taught by the "reformed" is consistent with Scripture. And then you say that their teaching of the Atonement which is only for the elect, is not? This is a contradiction! If Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, and not limited to the elect, then why the election of few in the first place? Surely Jesus would have not died for everyone, and yet only the elect are the ones who can get saved, which is what the "reformed" position is, as it would be pointless. The "reformed" would require that Jesus only died for them. That is why I believe that the Five Points of Calvinism falls, when Limited Atonement is shown to be wrong, and Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, mean nothing, when Limited Atonement is removed, which, even John Calvin, and other "Reformers" never taught. Please clarify.

 

From this I take it that the "message of reconciliation", which is to be preached to all the world is insincere? God tells the whole world that they can be reconciled to Him through the death of Jesus Christ, and then says that sorry, it is not really for ALL, but only for the elect whom I have given to Jesus! This sounds like some deceit, which is not a possibility with the Lord. If Jesus Christ has died for the whole human race, then it must be equally, and ALL sinners can, if they "will", accept this offer of salvation in Jesus. If I understand the doctrine of Limited Atonement correctly. It teaches that the death of Jesus Christ actually purchased the "elect", who will be saved, and no one else was included in this. Also, if, as you say that "belief" is a gift from God, then why is God finding fault with those who don't believe, and punishing them in eternal hell for something that they cannot do? Surely is is grossly unfair, that God can hold someone accountable (unbelievers) for something that they are really "guilty" of, as they were not given this "gift" of belief in the first place? The whole "reformed" system of salvation causes huge problems because it is not based on solid Bible teaching. I also have been told many times by these "reformed", that God in His "secret will" does desire the salvation of the whole human race, but in His "revealed will", in the Holy Bible, actually does not! Seems to me that God is here double-minded!

 

You can't be that unaware. How many years have you been on the BB yet haven't gleaned the obvious?

I certainly do not believe that Christ laid down His life for each and every person who has and shall live. He died specifically and only for His Church (His elect His,His beloved, His sheep, His possession etc.)

 

"...that is, of those who believe."

 

It has nothing to do with "human logic", but arriving at the truth as taught in the Scriptures.

You quote from Scripture, which is very good, but simply giving odd texts here are there means nothing as it can be out of its context.

With regards to your quote from Romans 9 that God's mercy seems to be restricted to "some", I reply from, among others passages, Romans 11, which is written about the Jews who reject Jesus Christ and God's salvation:

"In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the call of God are not to be regretted. Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to them ALL." (28-32)

God here is said to concluded ALL to disobedience (sin), in order that He might show His mercy to them ALL. That is both the Jews as well as the Gentiles (non Jews), who make up the sum total of the entire world, are said to be the objects of God's mercy! The context very clearly is dealing with those who are hostile to the Lord, and would not be considered as being part of His "elect" people, to use Calvinistic language.

Again, from Romans 9 you refer to the "vessels of honor and dishonor". Did you notice the language that Paul uses here?

"if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory" (22-23)

You will see that when speaking of the "vessels of mercy", Paul says "which He had before prepared", which is not used with the "vessels or wrath"! Also note, that God is said to "endure with much longsuffering" with those who are "ready for destruction", which again Paul does not say that God was the cause of this. The fact that God is longsuffering with these who are enemies of His, is very clear that He desires that they trun from their sinful lives, to Him for their salvation. This is also very clear from passages like Ezekiel 33:7-11

"So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: ‘Thus you say, “If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?”’ Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’"

When I read passages like this, and the wonderful "Gospel in a nutshell", John 3:16, I cannot understand why do the "reformed" still insist that Jesus came only to save "some", and not the entire human race? the beauty of the Gospel is that it is for the WHOLE WORLD. have you ever read John Calvin, whom the "Calvinists" like to claim from whom their "Five Points of Calvinism" come from, actually says on the extent of the Atonement? Here are two of his own comments from his commentares.

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life" (John 3:16)

Can you see any "limitations" in Calvin's language? The "Calvinistic" term is "all men without distinction", and yet here we have Calvin himself, using language that very clearly shows that he taught that Jesus Christ died for the entire human race!

Also on Mark 14:24, we read Calvin, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

We would have here expected Calvin to use this word "many" to show that Jesus' death was not for ALL, and restricted only to the "elect". However, rightly he sees that "the whole human race" is meant to be included in the death of Jesus Christ. Andy yet the so-called "Calvinists" will still aruge, that their "Five Points" are based on Calvin's own theology! Why use his name for something he never taught or supported?

You see (I hope) that your "system" is not Bible-based, as is even shown to be by one of your own leaders!