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Is God Sovereign?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Nov 25, 2017.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not true at all. In fact you disagree with what the Bible says;

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    Your argument here is with God. God wins you loose.
    God doesn't wish!
    God is not willing that any should perrish. This does not mean they don't perrish. It means that men can and do choose who they follow after. Some men choose darkness by the following of man. Others choose the Light by following Christ. We can choose life ever lasting, instead of death.
    MB
     
    #101 MB, Dec 8, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, I agree with God. My argument is with you.

    Nope. God wins, you lose. He can save anyone He pleases.

    Then why did you use that word? ("God can do as He wishes." MB - Post #99.)

    We know that. (And the correct spelling is "perish." Don't you ever check your spelling?)

    Exactly. (And learn to spell "perish." It is hard to take you seriously when you misspell simple words.)

    Yes. We know. And the lost man will always choose to reject Christ. That is the sinner's default mode.

    Yes. The one's to whom God gave a new heart will choose to accept Him. The others will choose to reject Him.

    Yes, but the lost man will always choose rejection of Christ until God changes his "chooser." :)
     
    #102 TCassidy, Dec 8, 2017
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The dog returns to its own vomit, as peter stated to us!
     
    #103 Yeshua1, Dec 8, 2017
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not so Your argument is with;
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    Your argument is with"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    Now look who's running. You've run out of excuses and have no explanation.
    MB
     
    #104 MB, Dec 8, 2017
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, because I believe every word of it.
    Wrong again. I believe every word of it.

    You. I am still standing for the bible.

    I already explained it. If you didn't understand I will be happy to explain it again.

    First off we have to put it in context. Read all of verses 1-9.

    The first thing we notice is that the subject of the passage is not salvation but the second coming of Christ. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ’s second coming. He is still coming and will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night (v. 10).

    The second thing to notice is that the verse in question (v. 9) speaks of the will of God. “God is not willing” for something to happen.

    Theologians have long recognized that there are three ways in which the will of God is spoken of in Scripture.

    There is what is called the Sovereign Decretive Will. This refers to the will by which God brings to pass whatsoever He decrees. This is something that ALWAYS happens. Nothing can thwart this will. (Isa. 46:10, 11).

    Secondly, there is the Preceptive Will of God. This is God’s will revealed in His law, commandments or precepts. As the course of human history reveals, people have the power to break these commandments and do so every day. It is important to state though that, although men have the power to break these precepts, they do not have the right to do so. His creatures are under obligation to obey all His commandments and will face His judgment for not doing so.

    Thirdly, we have God’s Will of Disposition. This will describes God’s attitude. It defines what is pleasing to Him. For example, God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, yet He most surely wills or decrees the death of the wicked. God’s ultimate delight is in His own holiness and righteousness. When He judges the world, He delights in the vindication of His own righteousness and justice, yet He is not gleeful in a vindictive sense toward those who receive His judgment. God is pleased when we find our pleasure in obedience. He is sorely displeased when we are disobedient.

    Look at 2 Peter 3:9 and see that what we have here is God expressing His will of disposition. The text is saying that God is not wishing or desiring to see any human being perish (in one sense), even though that is exactly what will happen if a person does not come to repentance. The fact that people perish is not something that makes God happy. He would rather it never happened. But to uphold His holiness and justice, He must punish rebellious sinners by sending them to an eternity in hell.

    So, God is not willing that anyone perish, but His Holiness and Justice demand that sin have a price. He is not happy that they do, but He must punish sinners.

    (See Understanding 2 Peter 3:9 by John Samson (Guest Post) | Monergism)
     
    #105 TCassidy, Dec 8, 2017
  6. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    And this is the heart of the matter. Poor Jesus wants everyone to come to Him, but He just can't manage to convince everyone that His deal is the best offer going. He stands at the door and knocks (terrible exegesis of Rev. 3:20) if only someone would let Him in. . .

    What an impotent God some people have.
     
    #106 thatbrian, Dec 8, 2017
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    To them, God must honor free will.Period/
     
    #107 Yeshua1, Dec 9, 2017
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  8. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I lived for 25 years, a Christian, with the same view they have; although, I hadn't thought it through, so I can sympathize. . .

    The major, inescapable issue for them is that not all people are even presented with the options. In fact, most of mankind has not. How many people in China own a Bible? How many churches are there in the Middle East? Their claim that God draws all men equally runs into these realities, which I can't get anyone to address.
     
    #108 thatbrian, Dec 9, 2017
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  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God WANTS (wishes) for you not to sin ever again. So, according to your theology, etc etc.

    Tell about how you are now sinless and don't sin anymore.

    Or is his wishes overruled by your wishes?
     
    #109 utilyan, Dec 11, 2017
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "A customer can have a car painted any color he wants as long as it’s black" --Henry Ford.

    Calvinism's idea of Sovereignty allows for only one color, Calvinism.

    They don't believe God is Sovereign at all but trapped behind their limitations.

    Example God is too stupid to give anyone free will, Its beyond his scope.

    God is required to exercise divine power to be God. God can only beat you in a game of poker, if he can see your hand.

    God can only beat you in a game of checkers if he forces all your options to be the wrong option.


    I don't believe Armenians, but if he wanted to run the universe in an Armenian way could he pull it off? No he can't, Calvinism says he doesn't have the sovereignty to do it.
     
    #110 utilyan, Dec 11, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God wants lost sinners to turn to Jesus and to get saved by what He did on their behalf.period!
     
    #111 Yeshua1, Dec 12, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The one question they can never answer is why did they accept Jesus, and someone right next to them in the pew refused Him?
     
    #112 Yeshua1, Dec 12, 2017
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    God wants sinnners to choose to love Him, believe in Him, and repent. Period
     
    #113 Revmitchell, Dec 12, 2017
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  14. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    What part of their being is uncorrupted so they can choose?
     
    #114 Mr. Davis, Dec 12, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Its a good thing that God runs salvation plan, and not us!
     
    #115 Yeshua1, Dec 12, 2017
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  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The indestructible portion that is made in God's image. If all of you was corrupted then you would have been destroyed with nothing to save. If you were corrupted completely your equivalence would be that of Sin. God will not save murder for example. There is something there worth saving hence even God loves you when you were a sinner. God will never love sin.

    Romans 5

    6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
     
    #116 utilyan, Dec 12, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are still in image of God, but also are sinners, and there was and is NOTHING in anyone that would want God to save us based upon us!
     
    #117 Yeshua1, Dec 12, 2017
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  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God's plan is us.

    Philippians 2

    3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


    Jesus Christ is our example of action and attitude he does not play lotto or flip a coin concerning the interest of others. We do not play duck, duck, goose with the souls of anyone, and neither does Jesus play reprobate, reprobate, elect.
     
    #118 utilyan, Dec 12, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Same God judged Sodam for sins, correct? Sent the Flood to wipe out all but 8, correct?
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Dec 12, 2017
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    There is no such thing as "HOLY EVIL".

    If God never made you, you would never sin either, So you don't even have the option of doing bad things without God. Unless you think you are divine holy evil with a independent capacity.


    1 peter 3

    8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

    This is what God almighty does, and that is what we are going to do.



    Luke 11

    11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

    ANSWER JESUS CHRIST, Calvinist!

    How much more will God give the holy spirit to those who ask him? You don't have it if your asking for it.

    Isn't the answer HE WON'T?


    This passage is directly combating the idea of Calvinism. Because Jesus is talking to a crowd of people who think God wouldn't do anything for them if they asked for help. That they are worthless to God.

    And Yet Jesus equates them EVIL as having a heavenly Father who indeed loves them.


    A Calvinist would NEVER preach this passage. I could actually go out and tell this to every person on earth. To tell them they are a child of God and YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER is ready to give you the holy spirit.

    A Calvinist would have to say the heavenly father can't give the holy spirit. Because the person has to have the holy spirit to even have the capacity to ask. BACKWARDS to the message of Jesus.

    You can't repent and receive the holy spirit, BACKWARDS BACKWARDS BACKWARDS>>>> Calvinism says the holy spirit has to regenerate you first then you can repent.



    Matthew 6
    14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Nope, Calvinist says its BACKWARDS:
    For if GOD forgives you your transgressions, then you have the capacity to forgive others. But if God doesn't forgive you then you can't forgive anyone.

    BACKWARDS.


    Still got bout 150 verses on the matter. Its silly to believe the ball is not in your court, God says it is.
     
    #120 utilyan, Dec 12, 2017
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