Atonement

[Rebel1]

I think this is about the best there is. And even this does not affirm PSA as presented on this forum.

Christians (even those who reject PSA) believe that the wages of sin is death, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

I would not say that last part exactly that way. But I get your point.

 

[Rebel1]

The best I can come up with.

For the wages of sin is death; Rom 6:23
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6

That would probably be about the best anybody could come up with. Because nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

PSA was invented by the Magisterial Reformers who were influenced by Anselm's Satisfaction view. All influenced by a legalist view of God.

 

[Rebel1]

I believe this article from an Orthodox website will be helpful for what we bare discussing here:

Saint Athanasius and the ‘Penal Substitutionary’ Atonement Doctrine | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, you seem to assume God cursed the Son as if in vengeance.

Not at all. As I have said over and over again, the Lord Jesus never ceased to be the beloved Son. The fact that He took on the penalty of our sin and the curse of it shows how much God loves us. The curse was not vengeful, but judicial. Christ was made sin for us' and suffered the due penalty of it. A human judge is not vengeful when he condemns a criminal to prison or (in some countries) to death; he is giving the just sentence of the law.

Does not the word “cursed” (Galatians 3) also mean one doomed to destruction, one under divine judgement?

Yes. We (sinners are doomed to destruction and under divine judgement, but in His mercy and amazing grace, Christ faced our doom and suffered the judgement of God against sin. But of course, God raised Him up, 'having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible for death to hold Him' (Acts 2:24), not only because of who He is, but also because of God's promise through David (Psalm 16:8-11).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I understand you read it as the same thing, but the fact is it isn't. That's my point. So many here (not all who would defend PSA, but several) cannot read Scripture except through their own presuppositions. Their blindness is nothing short of biblical illiteracy.

Unfortunately, many of those who deny PSA cannot read Scripture but through their own presuppositions. Their blindness is nothing short of biblical illiteracy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I already told you. Just as Isaiah wrote - those men who rejected Christ ESTEEMED him as stricken and afflicted. Their hanging him on the Cross testifies to this.

Yes, indeed, 'We' (not 'they') reckoned Him to be stricken by God and afflicted. Of course that's right, as Isaiah makes clear in v.!0, but what the Jews did not realise is that He was suffering not for His own sins but for ours. What 'we' don't understand until we come fully to comprehend the cross and its purposes is that 'He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.'

You change the identity of the godless men to God.

I suppose next you are going to tell me that God cursed all of those Christians who were crucified by Rome.

If I wrote that about you, you would edit it out and mark it 'insult deleted.'
Well, we've now reached the third stage of incompetence. First there is error, then bluster and thirdly insult. The fourth stage is violence so perhaps it's as well you don't know where I live.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, indeed, 'We' (not 'they') reckoned Him to be stricken by God and afflicted. Of course that's right, as Isaiah makes clear in v.!0, but what the Jews did not realise is that He was suffering not for His own sins but for ours. What 'we' don't understand until we come fully to comprehend the cross and its purposes is that 'He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.'

If I wrote that about you, you would edit it out and mark it 'insult deleted.'
Well, we've now reached the third stage of incompetence. First there is error, then bluster and thirdly insult. The fourth stage is violence so perhaps it's as well you don't know where I live.

Oh come on Steve

 

[JonC]

I'm not blind enough to miss the shenanigans you play with the text.

Let's look at the passage and see just who it is playing shenanigans.

Let’s look at your claim.

You claim that

Χριστὸς ἡμᾶς ἐξηγόρασεν ἐκ τῆς κατάρας τοῦ νόμου γενόμενος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν κατάρα, ὅτι γέγραπται Ἐπικατάρατος πᾶς ὁ κρεμάμενος ἐπὶ ξύλου,

states “God cursed Jesus”.

The verse actually uses the word γίνομαι. Having become a curse for us.

Now let’s look at Scripture:

Galatians 3:13-14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We see the idea that “cursed is anyone who hangs upon a tree” first in Deuteronomy 21. Here it is not a method of execution but the practice of hanging a corpse on a post as a warning to the population. The context indicates its use with those executed for breaking certain laws of the covenant community.

Verse 23 imposes a limitation. The body was to be removed at sunset, for to leave the body overnight would pollute the land (the land belonged to God and would be given by God to Israel).

The body was not “accursed of God (literally, “curse of God”) because it was hung on the pole. It was hanging on the pole because it was considered by Israel to be accursed of God. And it was not considered such because of death but because of the reason for the death. To break the law was in effect to curse God (which is exactly what mankind has done with sin). So Paul says that Christ took upon Himself the curse of the law, the penalty of death, thereby redeeming us from the curse of the law.

You are the one playing shenanigans and twisting God's Word. If you can't see this (and I accept you probably can't) then it is a matter of literacy. If you can see this, then it's a matter of honesty.

 

[JonC]

Yes, indeed, 'We' (not 'they') reckoned Him to be stricken by God and afflicted. Of course that's right, as Isaiah makes clear in v.!0, but what the Jews did not realise is that He was suffering not for His own sins but for ours. What 'we' don't understand until we come fully to comprehend the cross and its purposes is that 'He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.'

If I wrote that about you, you would edit it out and mark it 'insult deleted.'
Well, we've now reached the third stage of incompetence. First there is error, then bluster and thirdly insult. The fourth stage is violence so perhaps it's as well you don't know where I live.

It is obvious that we cannot discuss Scripture in a brotherly manner. My point was that "Jesus became a curse for us" does not mean "God cursed Jesus". My point was that Isaiah does not say "Jesus was stricken by God". You are not being honest with Scripture and you are not being honest with me.

Unfortunately, many of those who deny PSA cannot read Scripture but through their own presuppositions. Their blindness is nothing short of biblical illiteracy.

This is true. Many who deny PSA cannot read Scripture. There is a large movement away from the theory and unfortunately into another theory that denies the idea that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

But this does not excuse the liberties taken by those who hold to PSA. Again, it's not all of them but the fact that some read Scripture to state "God cursed Jesus" and "Jesus was stricken by God" proves a handful are illiterate when it comes to the Bible. They read into the text their own traditions.

 

[JonC]

The fourth stage is violence so perhaps it's as well you don't know where I live.

Nice.

I believe that our conversation ends with this comment, brother. I expect some degree of colorful dialogue when we argue topics we feel strongly about, but this is not the first time you have crossed the line. When I was a soldier it became obvious that it is in the heat of battle one's true character is revealed. Unfortunately, it is often in the heat of argument as well.

God bless.

John

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nice.

I believe that our conversation ends with this comment, brother. I expect some degree of colorful dialogue when we argue topics we feel strongly about, but this is not the first time you have crossed the line. When I was a soldier it became obvious that it is in the heat of battle one's true character is revealed. Unfortunately, it is often in the heat of argument as well.

God bless.

John

You know how to dish out the insults and the false allegations, but you don't like it when someone hits back.
I wrote to you privately assuring you that I would end all insults if you would do likewise. That offer still stands. Will you take it up or not?

 

[JonC]

You know how to dish out the insults and the false allegations, but you don't like it when someone hits back.
I wrote to you privately assuring you that I would end all insults if you would do likewise. That offer still stands. Will you take it up or not?

My comment was not an insult, and I am not certain how you took it that way. I was speaking of the nature of "cursed is anyone who hangs upon a tree" as many Christians have died in a manner similar to Christ. It was meant as a legitimate observation.

But your reply went far beyond what I would consider a mild insult. No, I am not interested in your offer.

 

[agedman]

I wrote to you privately assuring you that I would end all insults if you would do likewise. That offer still stands. Will you take it up or not?

If (as I more often do) one becomes exuberant in response, and know it is, why wait on the other to dial it back?

I am not asking out of condemnation, for I also am more often at fault, but when I have been made aware, or come to self awareness, I must pause and reflect, and be less insulting in my response.

There is not a problem with pointing out error. Nor (imo) is there a problem with proclaiming the display in regards to the intent as it regards to intransigent holding of error.

If you wrote privately, then keep it private.

Or, allow that other poster who is insulting to continue knowing that if the focus is upon the principles of Scriptures, insults are but reactionary to not desiring to adjust to what another considers correct.

I am reminded of Desmond Doss, who endured great insults, yet was awarded because of his display of character. Desmond Doss - Wikipedia

 

[Yeshua1]

OK. Let's try again. Read Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and tell me: who cursed Christ?

The Father did, as it was His will and purpose to have Jesus suffer as the sin bearer on behalf of His own people!

 

[Yeshua1]

I wonder if you would like to look at the verses in Deuteronomy again and tell me where the word 'esteemed' is. I have highlighted the most relevant portion for you

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

Quite. But that does not alter the fact that on the cross Christ suffered the curse of God for us. Since you say you agree with Luther on PSA, let's hear from him: 'Paul therefore doth very well allege this general sentence out of Moses as concerning Christ. "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." But Christ hath hanged on a tree, therefore Christ was accursed of God' [Luther on Galatians 3:13]. Do you agree with Luther? Yes or no.

Certainly the Lord Jesus was/is 'holy, harmless undefiled' and certainly men quite correctly esteemed Him 'stricken, smitten by God and afflicted' because that is what He was. 'It pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' Certainly also He was crucified at the hands of godless men, but the Holy Spirit is content to lay the responsibility squarely upon God.
Who bruised the Christ? Who put Him to grief? Yahweh did!

BTW, since God Himself supernaturally turned day into night while Christ hung upon the tree (Mark 15:33 etc.), He did actually hang there at night. He really did carry that curse for us.

It would be great to discuss the meaning of these amazing facts and glory in the amazing love of the Father who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all [edited]

Only the Pst theology gives the real and full glory to the Trinity for our salvation!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree with Martyr on this topic, and insofar as Penal Substitution is concerned I agree with Luther that the focus was Christ Himself and not punishment (Christ, by His divinity and merit outweighed the wrath and sin against mankind).

1. Was Christ made a curse? Yes, Christ became a curse for us (he came in the likeness of sinful flesh, bore our sins in His flesh).
2. For whom was He made a curse? For us.
3. Who cursed Him? No one cursed Him. He became a cure for us. He was made a curse for us.

OK then; who made Him a curse? Was it the Jews? The Romans? Satan? The Lord Jesus Himself? No! It was God who made Him to be accursed for us. He made Him to be sin for us and He made Him to be a curse for us..

Christ is sinless.

Correct.

Those who esteemed Him as stricken by God and hanged Him on the cross were wrong.

They were obviously wrong to hang Him on the cross, but their assessment of Him on the cross was spot on. 'It pleased the LORD to bruise [or 'crush'] Him; He has put Him to grief.' Where they erred was in supposing that He was stricken by God for His own sin.

But this was God's will that Christ suffer and die, taking upon Himself the sin of mankind - for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ was lifted up as our representative. He suffered and died, the weight of our sin bearing upon Him, for us. Christ became a curse. He bore the curse of mankind for mankind. And by His stripes we are healed.

Agreed, save that you cannot say who made Him a curse.

Cutting to the chase, I believe that your version of PSA becomes heresy because of the degree to which you take the theory.

Well then, I am in good company. Apart from Justin Martyr and Luther, I join with Calvin, John Owen, George Whitefield, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, John MacArthur, John Piper et al. I leave to you Steve Chalke and N.T. Wright (who wrote the foreword to Chalke's book, The Lost Message of Jesus).

You add to it answers to questions neither asked nor answered in Scripture.

Clearly answered several times as I have shown.

Origen's heresy was that God paid a ransom to Satan. Your heresy is that God cursed Jesus.

If you mean by that that God cursed Christ as Shimei cursed David in 2 Samuel 15:5ff then you are just being silly. What I believe is what I have stated time and time again, that 'God gave Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.' The curse is a judicial one, a curse upon sinners (Deuteronomy 27:26), and is our curse because we cannot keep God's righteous laws, but God placed it upon Christ's sinless shoulders so that we might receive blessing.

Scripture, however, says that Jesus became a curse, was made a curse for us, to ransom us from the bondage of sin and death. You, just like Origen, err by creating a context foreign to Scripture. Your "religion" gets in the way of the truth.

I have decided not to trade insults with you in future under any circumstances. God bless you, brother; have a great day.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not at all. As I have said over and over again, the Lord Jesus never ceased to be the beloved Son. The fact that He took on the penalty of our sin and the curse of it shows how much God loves us. The curse was not vengeful, but judicial. Christ was made sin for us' and suffered the due penalty of it. A human judge is not vengeful when he condemns a criminal to prison or (in some countries) to death; he is giving the just sentence of the law.

Yes. We (sinners are doomed to destruction and under divine judgement, but in His mercy and amazing grace, Christ faced our doom and suffered the judgement of God against sin. But of course, God raised Him up, 'having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible for death to hold Him' (Acts 2:24), not only because of who He is, but also because of God's promise through David (Psalm 16:8-11).

God was pouring out His divine wrath for our sins upon Christ, noit due to anything Jesus had did, or to get back at Him, but due to Jesus accepting being the very Lamb of God, and our sin bearer!

 

[agedman]

The Father did, as it was His will and purpose to have Jesus suffer as the sin bearer on behalf of His own people!

Scripture?

Is there an actual Scripture either symbolically or literally that God cursed Himself?

For if it is true that Christ is God in the flesh, then to have you declare God cursed Christ, then God cursed Himself.

 

[agedman]

Only the Pst theology gives the real and full glory to the Trinity for our salvation!

This is a huge assumption and rather unsupportable.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK then; who made Him a curse? Was it the Jews? The Romans? Satan? The Lord Jesus Himself? No! It was God who made Him to be accursed for us. He made Him to be sin for us and He made Him to be a curse for us..

Correct.

They were obviously wrong to hang Him on the cross, but their assessment of Him on the cross was spot on. 'It pleased the LORD to bruise [or 'crush'] Him; He has put Him to grief.' Where they erred was in supposing that He was stricken by God for His own sin.

Agreed, save that you cannot say who made Him a curse.
Well then, I am in good company. Apart from Justin Martyr and Luther, I join with Calvin, John Owen, George Whitefield, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, John MacArthur, John Piper et al. I leave to you Steve Chalke and N.T. Wright (who wrote the foreword to Chalke's book, The Lost Message of Jesus).

Clearly answered several times as I have shown.

If you mean by that that God cursed Christ as Shimei cursed David in 2 Samuel 15:5ff then you are just being silly. What I believe is what I have stated time and time again, that 'God gave Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.' The curse is a judicial one, a curse upon sinners (Deuteronomy 27:26), and is our curse because we cannot keep God's righteous laws, but God placed it upon Christ's sinless shoulders so that we might receive blessing.

I have decided not to trade insults with you in future under any circumstances. God bless you, brother; have a great day.

I would rather belong to that group that agrees with us than those who agree with those against Pst.