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Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes. We need to argue against the actual doctrines.
     
    #21 thatbrian, Feb 5, 2018
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes it looks like a turf war between the Bloods and the Crips around here.
     
    #22 Rob_BW, Feb 5, 2018
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Or Alabama and Georgia (who should have won).
     
    #23 JonC, Feb 5, 2018
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yea I think it is likely.
     
    #24 Revmitchell, Feb 5, 2018
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It'd be easy to know....just ask them. We can start on this thread by asking @SovereignGrace , @Yeshua1 , and @thatbrian (I believe them all to be Calvinists..?...) if they believe God is the author of evil.

    The fact will, of course, remain that such a belief is contrary to Calvinism. But at least we could see how many of them hold that non-Calvinistic position (how many hold a position contrary to what was stated in the Canons of Dort). They'd be like "Baptists" who believe in infant baptism.
     
    #25 JonC, Feb 5, 2018
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  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe that for a second.
     
    #26 Revmitchell, Feb 5, 2018
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am a Particular Baptist believing all 5 points of TULIP and all 5 Heads of Doctrine of Dort, and I reject the blasphemous charge that God is the author of evil.

    Anybody who knew anything at all about the subject would not make such a stupid accusation.
     
    #27 TCassidy, Feb 5, 2018
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I've found not only that our beliefs have absolutely no effect on facts, but also that the inverse should be true. On this forum it has been accepted that "Calvinism" refers not to the Presbyterian denomination but to the so called "five-points" from the Canons of Dort. From Article 15 of the first Main Point of Doctrine: “And this is the decree of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.”

    While there certainly may be Calvinists who believe God authors sin, such belief is contrary to the doctrines of Calvinism itself. This fact (as stated in the Canons of Dort, which attributes the idea that God authors sin as a blasphemous thought) is not something that can be honestly debated. That said, we have had what I have referred to as neo-Calvinists here (I don't know why as they have their own forum, i.e., the dog house) that hold "hyper" views (views taken from Calvinism but to unwarranted conclusions). But the idea God authors sin is a departure from actual Calvinistic doctrine.

    Free-will advocates have the same issue. There are people who share a common view in terms of the mode of divine knowledge, but take it to the unwarranted conclusion of Open Theism. In terms of the atonement, I believe the most dominant view in Scripture is the Christus Victor motif. But some, like Denny Weaver, take this to the extreme of denying penal substitution to create a non-violent atonement.

    But, the bottom line is Calvinistic doctrine proves you are mistaking here (regardless of what some Calvinists may believe or teach). Likewise, Arminian doctrine proves others who would demonize the view wrong for the same reasons - Arminian doctrine clearly states that God, not man, is the author of salvation.
     
    #28 JonC, Feb 5, 2018
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I have not until recently had a problem with Calvinists of any flavor. Its the New Calvinists I have a problem with. They are on a mission to ram Calvinism down everyone's throat. The extreme sovereignty they promote does indeed make man a puppet or a robot, since you mentioned it.
     
    #29 Reynolds, Feb 5, 2018
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Hmmmm. Isn't that the opposite of an oxymoron?

    When you say "extreme sovereignty" doesn't that presuppose a "partial sovereignty" which seems to me to be a contradiction in term?

    God is either sovereign or He is not. There is no "extreme" or "partial." There is only His Sovereignty. Is He all powerful (Omnipotent) or not?
     
    #30 TCassidy, Feb 5, 2018
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, not at all. It makes perfect sense - I am the head of my household...just don't ask my wife. :Laugh
     
    #31 JonC, Feb 5, 2018
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I have seen dishonest discussions on both sides of the argument. I've also seen stupid theology on both sides (a leaning towards open theism on one side, and a fatalistic view on the other).
     
    #32 JonC, Feb 5, 2018
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    God the author of evil?! That is a foolish thought. Calvinism teaches no such thing.
     
    #33 thatbrian, Feb 5, 2018
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  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    And I am telling you it is common among calvies. Open theism is not common among everyone else.
     
    #34 Revmitchell, Feb 5, 2018
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    This is what Calvinists believe, in writing:

    Westminster Confession

    I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

    1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

    1 God has Decreed in Himself, from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever come to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, nor has fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness in accomplishing his Decree.—
     
    #35 thatbrian, Feb 5, 2018
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
     
    #36 InTheLight, Feb 5, 2018
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    As usual...you have no idea what you are talking about...you show yourself quite foolish suggesting anyone believes God is the author of sin. It is you who introduce such profane thoughts onto the threads, then you run and hide when answered...
     
    #37 Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2018
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    and yet if you read your bible you might see this;
    9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

    11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2018
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but I must have missed that part where God commands Satan to do evil. Can you point that out?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #39 InTheLight, Feb 5, 2018
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The part that I bolded was the part where Satan was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do except touch Jobs life. God controlled the events, Satan did what he wanted to do......do you think killing his family was a good deed?
     
    #40 Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2018
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