Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

[Yeshua1]

No, not at all. We are tempted by our desires. When we give in to our desires over God's will this gives birth to sin.

Adam was tempted and carried away by His own lust, which once conceived gave birth to sin and brought forth death.

In other words, Adam sinned in his given nature. He did not fall and then sin, but through his sin death entered the world. Scripture does not present Adam's nature as changing before he sinned (the change afterwards was a knowledge of good and evil).

true, but also became in Him a sinful nature, which all after Him , save for Jesus, would inherit...

 

[JonC]

I do not know any of the "official" Confessions of reformed faith that tell us that God authored Sin, is there one that does?

Not that I know of.

 

[JonC]

true, but also became in Him a sinful nature, which all after Him , save for Jesus, would inherit...

If Adam sinned with the same nature God created him with, apart from having a fallen nature (if he sinned simply out of human nature), then why would we need a "sinful nature" to sin?

 

[delizzle]

God is responsible for the possibility of evil. We are responsible for the actuality of evil.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've found not only that our beliefs have absolutely no effect on facts, but also that the inverse should be true. On this forum it has been accepted that "Calvinism" refers not to the Presbyterian denomination but to the so called "five-points" from the Canons of Dort. From Article 15 of the first Main Point of Doctrine: “And this is the decree of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.”

While there certainly may be Calvinists who believe God authors sin, such belief is contrary to the doctrines of Calvinism itself. This fact (as stated in the Canons of Dort, which attributes the idea that God authors sin as a blasphemous thought) is not something that can be honestly debated. That said, we have had what I have referred to as neo-Calvinists here (I don't know why as they have their own forum, i.e., the dog house) that hold "hyper" views (views taken from Calvinism but to unwarranted conclusions). But the idea God authors sin is a departure from actual Calvinistic doctrine.

Free-will advocates have the same issue. There are people who share a common view in terms of the mode of divine knowledge, but take it to the unwarranted conclusion of Open Theism. In terms of the atonement, I believe the most dominant view in Scripture is the Christus Victor motif. But some, like Denny Weaver, take this to the extreme of denying penal substitution to create a non-violent atonement.

But, the bottom line is Calvinistic doctrine proves you are mistaking here (regardless of what some Calvinists may believe or teach). Likewise, Arminian doctrine proves others who would demonize the view wrong for the same reasons - Arminian doctrine clearly states that God, not man, is the author of salvation.

I would say that the Penal substitution model is most popular among Reformed/calvinists, and the Victor by the other wings of Christianity...

 

[Yeshua1]

If Adam sinned with the same nature God created him with, apart from having a fallen nature (if he sinned simply out of human nature), then why would we need a "sinful nature" to sin?

Adam and satan both were created morally perfect as to their states, but both chose freely to sin, and they experienced a real change as unto their natures at that moment.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is what Calvinists believe, in writing:

Westminster Confession

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

1 God has Decreed in Himself, from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever come to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, nor has fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness in accomplishing his Decree.—

Those are THE 2 standard Calvinist Confessions, but far more importantly, the Bible never ascribes that to God!

 

[Yeshua1]

It'd be easy to know....just ask them. We can start on this thread by asking @SovereignGrace , @Yeshua1 , and @thatbrian (I believe them all to be Calvinists..?...) if they believe God is the author of evil.

The fact will, of course, remain that such a belief is contrary to Calvinism. But at least we could see how many of them hold that non-Calvinistic position (how many hold a position contrary to what was stated in the Canons of Dort). They'd be like "Baptists" who believe in infant baptism.

I am a Cavinist Baptist, who outright rejects the notion that God authored evil and sin....

 

[Yeshua1]

Extreme being how one views His exercise of Sovereignty. God being sovereign does not mean He chooses to control every minute detail in His creation.

What would be outside of His control then?

 

[delizzle]

If Adam sinned with the same nature God created him with, apart from having a fallen nature (if he sinned simply out of human nature), then why would we need a "sinful nature" to sin?

The origin of evil is an important question to address. The problem stems from God's perfect nature. Is it possible for a perfect being such as God to create anything with imperfections? How then is it pissible for Adam to be an imperfect creature who caused evil? After all, it is written; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matt. 7:18).

 

[delizzle]

I am a Cavinist Baptist, who outright rejects the notion that God authored evil and sin....

Do you believe Genesis 1-3 to be historical narrative or more poetic?

 

[delizzle]

What would be outside of His control then?

Sovereignty describes God's authority over His creation. His authority is absolute. His providence describes His involvement in that creation. If we are to suggest that His providence is absolute, we risk falling into a philosophy of Hard Determinism.

In other words, there is nothing outside of God's control. However, how much God chooses to control is debatable.

 

[JonC]

Adam and satan both were created morally perfect as to their states, but both chose freely to sin, and they experienced a real change as unto their natures at that moment.

Do we also not freely choose to sin? Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. What changes in his nature do you think he experienced, why, and where do you find it?

 

[JonC]

The origin of evil is an important question to address. The problem stems from God's perfect nature. Is it possible for a perfect being such as God to create anything with imperfections? How then is it pissible for Adam to be an imperfect creature who caused evil? After all, it is written; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matt. 7:18).

Good questions. Do you think that Adam somehow fell from perfection before he sinned?

 

[delizzle]

Good questions. Do you think that Adam somehow fell from perfection before he sinned?

I believe free will is one of the perfections God gave Adam. Hence, perfect creations can cause evil.

 

[The Archangel]

Do we also not freely choose to sin? Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. What changes in his nature do you think he experienced, why, and where do you find it?

There is an issue of misunderstanding here. It isn't that Adam acquires knowledge of good and evil. Rather, the phrase "knowing good and evil" means to become a law unto yourself, to decide for yourself what is good rather than taking God's declaration. Adam's sin, then, is rebellion, but it's a particular type of rebellion where the "governor" commits treason against the "King."

So, what changes is Adam's heart, his disposition. He no longer is the vice-regent of creation. Now, he is, essentially, his own god declaring for himself what is right and wrong. That is the nature of sin.

The Archangel

 

[JonC]

There is an issue of misunderstanding here. It isn't that Adam acquires knowledge of good and evil. Rather, the phrase "knowing good and evil" means to become a law unto yourself, to decide for yourself what is good rather than taking God's declaration. Adam's sin, then, is rebellion, but it's a particular type of rebellion where the "governor" commits treason against the "King."

So, what changes is Adam's heart, his disposition. He no longer is the vice-regent of creation. Now, he is, essentially, his own god declaring for himself what is right and wrong. That is the nature of sin.

The Archangel

I agree with the first part. I'd add that this knowledge is by experience - Adam rebelled by an exercise of the will (his will) over God's will and disobeyed.

But still, this rebellion was not a product of the fall. Adam, in the state God had created him, declared for himself what was right and wrong. What Adam had was a human nature (a nature that is common to man). Christ took upon Himself this very thing, yet without sin. Christ was tempted in all points as we are, but He did not replace the will of the Father with the will of His flesh.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe Genesis 1-3 to be historical narrative or more poetic?

Actual historical factual events!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe free will is one of the perfections God gave Adam. Hence, perfect creations can cause evil.

God gave to Adam the potential to freely sin, and after the fall, ALL save Jesus now in bondage to that sin nature!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sovereignty describes God's authority over His creation. His authority is absolute. His providence describes His involvement in that creation. If we are to suggest that His providence is absolute, we risk falling into a philosophy of Hard Determinism.

In other words, there is nothing outside of God's control. However, how much God chooses to control is debatable.

God either directly determines all things that ever happen, or else he permits them to happen, either way, all things under His control!