Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

[Jerome]

Who exactly are these "Truly Reformed" guys he's so upset at? Is this part of his spat with J.D. Hall of Reformation Montana?

 

[The Archangel]

I agree with the first part. I'd add that this knowledge is by experience - Adam rebelled by an exercise of the will (his will) over God's will and disobeyed.

But still, this rebellion was not a product of the fall. Adam, in the state God had created him, declared for himself what was right and wrong. What Adam had was a human nature (a nature that is common to man). Christ took upon Himself this very thing, yet without sin. Christ was tempted in all points as we are, but He did not replace the will of the Father with the will of His flesh.

Adam's rebellion isn't a result of the fall, it is the fall.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

Do we also not freely choose to sin? Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. What changes in his nature do you think he experienced, why, and where do you find it?

Adam was not a sinner when created, but all save Jesus are when born!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is an issue of misunderstanding here. It isn't that Adam acquires knowledge of good and evil. Rather, the phrase "knowing good and evil" means to become a law unto yourself, to decide for yourself what is good rather than taking God's declaration. Adam's sin, then, is rebellion, but it's a particular type of rebellion where the "governor" commits treason against the "King."

So, what changes is Adam's heart, his disposition. He no longer is the vice-regent of creation. Now, he is, essentially, his own god declaring for himself what is right and wrong. That is the nature of sin.

The Archangel

Adam and Eve became as Satan did after He fell, their own little "gods"

 

[JonC]

Adam was not a sinner when created, but all save Jesus are when born!

What sin did we commit before we committed a sin?

On a more personal note, if you are willing, please tell us what sin you committed against God before or as you were being born.

 

[Yeshua1]

Adam's rebellion isn't a result of the fall, it is the fall.

The Archangel

Yes, as thru His one act of disobedience all of creation, especially Mankind. was ruined forward!

 

[Yeshua1]

What sin did we commit before we committed a sin?

We all were judged in Adam as now being found guilty, and all received a sin nature when conceived....

 

[JonC]

We all were judged in Adam as now being found guilty, and all received a sin nature when conceived....

I agree that we were all judged "in Adam", and that through him sin entered the world and spread to all mankind for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But where is the support for the idea that we received a sin nature when conceived (as opposed to a human nature, which Christ also shared)?

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that we were all judged "in Adam", and that through him sin entered the world and spread to all mankind for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But where is the support for the idea that we received a sin nature when conceived (as opposed to a human nature, which Christ also shared)?

We are born physically into Adam, and thus receive His sin nature sin, while Jesus bypassed that by Holy Spirit conception!

 

[JonC]

We are born physically into Adam, and thus receive His sin nature sin, while Jesus bypassed that by Holy Spirit conception!

Ah....philosophical biology. Do you believe that Mary was sinless?

 

[Yeshua1]

Ah....philosophical biology. Do you believe that Mary was sinless?

No, but the humanity of Jesus came from Mary, but the Virgin Birth allowed Jesus to not be conceived as a sinner....

 

[TCassidy]

Extreme being how one views His exercise of Sovereignty. God being sovereign does not mean He chooses to control every minute detail in His creation.

Agreed. His decrital will must be understood to be very different from his permissive will.

 

[TCassidy]

And I am telling you it is common among calvies.

Except not a single one here agrees with you.

 

[The Archangel]

I agree that we were all judged "in Adam", and that through him sin entered the world and spread to all mankind for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But where is the support for the idea that we received a sin nature when conceived (as opposed to a human nature, which Christ also shared)?

Romans 5

[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. (Romans 5:12–14 ESV)​

Paul's whole point is that people who broke no law(s) and therefore technically committed no sin(s) still died. If your idea is correct (we don't have a sin nature), then no pre-born or just-born baby should ever die since "the wages of sin is death." Since babies do die (tragically) and since people between Adam and Moses' law died, we clearly see we have the Adamic nature, a sin nature.

The Archangel

 

[JonC]

No, but the humanity of Jesus came from Mary, but the Virgin Birth allowed Jesus to not be conceived as a sinner....

So sin is passed along through male organic materials? Are you sure?

 

[Yeshua1]

So sin is passed along through male organic materials? Are you sure?

Sin actual is "passed" by God, as when conception occurs, the soul is created By God, and the human being is a sinner in nature even then...

 

[JonC]

Romans 5

[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. (Romans 5:12–14 ESV)​

Paul's whole point is that people who broke no law(s) and therefore technically committed no sin(s) still died. If your idea is correct (we don't have a sin nature), then no pre-born or just-born baby should ever die since "the wages of sin is death." Since babies do die (tragically) and since people between Adam and Moses' law died, we clearly see we have the Adamic nature, a sin nature.

The Archangel

Absolutely. I've made the same point on other threads. Technically there were no transgressors like Adam and Israel (from Moses forward). Yet we are all slaves to sin and death. This is not a "sin nature" but a human nature under the headship of Adam. Christ was made flesh, in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted by what is in our nature. Jesus was tempted by what was in His nature (as a man). This is not sin. Sin is a matter of the will, not the nature.

There is no passage of Scripture that states Adam's nature changed before, after, or during the Fall. Rather, James tells us we are tempted by things of the flesh and when we give in to this temptation sin is birthed. As you so aptly put it, when we put our desires...ourselves....in the place of God or God's will this is rebellion and sin.

 

[delizzle]

Actual historical factual events!

Ok. Thank you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely. I've made the same point on other threads. Technically there were no transgressors like Adam and Israel (from Moses forward). Yet we are all slaves to sin and death. This is not a "sin nature" but a human nature under the headship of Adam. Christ was made flesh, in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted by what is in our nature. Jesus was tempted by what was in His nature (as a man). This is not sin. Sin is a matter of the will, not the nature.

There is no passage of Scripture that states Adam's nature changed before, after, or during the Fall. Rather, James tells us we are tempted by things of the flesh and when we give in to this temptation sin is birthed. As you so aptly put it, when we put our desires...ourselves....in the place of God or God's will this is rebellion and sin.

Jesus was as Adam at His creation, as Jesus had no sin nature, as he had sinless perfect Humanity... NONE of us can claim that, as He was made in our likeness, but not our sameness...

 

[JonC]

Sin actual is "passed" by God, as when conception occurs, the soul is created By God, and the human being is a sinner in nature even then...

So you do believe God authors sin? I think you may change your mind if you consider the words of James.

We are tempted by things we desire. When we are carried away in our lusts sin is birthed. It is acting on our desires (on the desires of the flesh) rather than submitting to the will of God. Jesus was tempted to eat during a fast. This would have been a sin as it would have been giving in to temptation over the will of God. But Jesus did not act on this desire.