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Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    true, but also became in Him a sinful nature, which all after Him , save for Jesus, would inherit...
     
    #61 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not that I know of.
     
    #62 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If Adam sinned with the same nature God created him with, apart from having a fallen nature (if he sinned simply out of human nature), then why would we need a "sinful nature" to sin?
     
    #63 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  4. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    God is responsible for the possibility of evil. We are responsible for the actuality of evil.
     
    #64 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would say that the Penal substitution model is most popular among Reformed/calvinists, and the Victor by the other wings of Christianity...
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam and satan both were created morally perfect as to their states, but both chose freely to sin, and they experienced a real change as unto their natures at that moment.
     
    #66 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those are THE 2 standard Calvinist Confessions, but far more importantly, the Bible never ascribes that to God!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I am a Cavinist Baptist, who outright rejects the notion that God authored evil and sin....
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What would be outside of His control then?
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  10. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    The origin of evil is an important question to address. The problem stems from God's perfect nature. Is it possible for a perfect being such as God to create anything with imperfections? How then is it pissible for Adam to be an imperfect creature who caused evil? After all, it is written; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matt. 7:18).
     
    #70 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
  11. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Do you believe Genesis 1-3 to be historical narrative or more poetic?
     
    #71 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
  12. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Sovereignty describes God's authority over His creation. His authority is absolute. His providence describes His involvement in that creation. If we are to suggest that His providence is absolute, we risk falling into a philosophy of Hard Determinism.

    In other words, there is nothing outside of God's control. However, how much God chooses to control is debatable.
     
    #72 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do we also not freely choose to sin? Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. What changes in his nature do you think he experienced, why, and where do you find it?
     
    #73 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Good questions. Do you think that Adam somehow fell from perfection before he sinned?
     
    #74 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  15. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    I believe free will is one of the perfections God gave Adam. Hence, perfect creations can cause evil.
     
    #75 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
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  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    There is an issue of misunderstanding here. It isn't that Adam acquires knowledge of good and evil. Rather, the phrase "knowing good and evil" means to become a law unto yourself, to decide for yourself what is good rather than taking God's declaration. Adam's sin, then, is rebellion, but it's a particular type of rebellion where the "governor" commits treason against the "King."

    So, what changes is Adam's heart, his disposition. He no longer is the vice-regent of creation. Now, he is, essentially, his own god declaring for himself what is right and wrong. That is the nature of sin.

    The Archangel
     
    #76 The Archangel, Feb 6, 2018
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree with the first part. I'd add that this knowledge is by experience - Adam rebelled by an exercise of the will (his will) over God's will and disobeyed.

    But still, this rebellion was not a product of the fall. Adam, in the state God had created him, declared for himself what was right and wrong. What Adam had was a human nature (a nature that is common to man). Christ took upon Himself this very thing, yet without sin. Christ was tempted in all points as we are, but He did not replace the will of the Father with the will of His flesh.
     
    #77 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actual historical factual events!
     
    #78 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God gave to Adam the potential to freely sin, and after the fall, ALL save Jesus now in bondage to that sin nature!
     
    #79 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God either directly determines all things that ever happen, or else he permits them to happen, either way, all things under His control!
     
    #80 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
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