Even if 95% of Calvinists believed God authored evil (which I doubt is true), the fact that Calvinistic doctrine (the Canons of Dort) teaches otherwise negates such a claim
Yes. We need to argue against the actual doctrines.
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Even if 95% of Calvinists believed God authored evil (which I doubt is true), the fact that Calvinistic doctrine (the Canons of Dort) teaches otherwise negates such a claim
Or Alabama and Georgia (who should have won).Sometimes it looks like a turf war between the Bloods and the Crips around here.
I remember one non-Cal here who said he saved himself (I can't remember who, and think he's no longer around) . And I've seen the charge of open theism quite often, but only remember one (I think) who held the view.
Do you think most Calvinists on this board believe that God is the author of evil?
It'd be easy to know....just ask them. We can start on this thread by asking @SovereignGrace , @Yeshua1 , and @thatbrian (I believe them all to be Calvinists..?...) if they believe God is the author of evil.Yea I think it is likely.
The fact will, of course, remain that such a belief is contrary to Calvinism. .
Canons of the Synod of Dort.
5 heads of Doctrine
Article 15
And this is the decree of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.
I've found not only that our beliefs have absolutely no effect on facts, but also that the inverse should be true. On this forum it has been accepted that "Calvinism" refers not to the Presbyterian denomination but to the so called "five-points" from the Canons of Dort. From Article 15 of the first Main Point of Doctrine: “And this is the decree of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.”I don't believe that for a second.
I have not until recently had a problem with Calvinists of any flavor. Its the New Calvinists I have a problem with. They are on a mission to ram Calvinism down everyone's throat. The extreme sovereignty they promote does indeed make man a puppet or a robot, since you mentioned it.I don't see how anyone could disagree with you on that point. If there is one thing I've noticed around here, however, is that it goes both ways. I've seen (fairly recently) members characterize Calvinists as denying men of free-choice, of making men "robots", and as determining God to be the author of evil.
Unfortunately this section of the forum often looks like nothing more than a mud pit (or perhaps a pig pen may be a more apt description). Christians on both sides seem to have an unhealthy desire to demonize others, calling it "iron sharpening iron" while lacking the mettle for the task.
Hmmmm. Isn't that the opposite of an oxymoron?The extreme sovereignty
No, not at all. It makes perfect sense - I am the head of my household...just don't ask my wife.Hmmmm. Isn't that the opposite of an oxymoron?
When you say "extreme sovereignty" doesn't that presuppose a "partial sovereignty" which seems to me to be a contradiction in term?
God is either sovereign or He is not. There is no "extreme" or "partial." There is only His Sovereignty. Is He all powerful (Omnipotent) or not?
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I have seen dishonest discussions on both sides of the argument. I've also seen stupid theology on both sides (a leaning towards open theism on one side, and a fatalistic view on the other).I have not until recently had a problem with Calvinists of any flavor. Its the New Calvinists I have a problem with. They are on a mission to ram Calvinism down everyone's throat. The extreme sovereignty they promote does indeed make man a puppet or a robot, since you mentioned it.
I've found not only that our beliefs have absolutely no effect on facts, but also that the inverse should be true. On this forum it has been accepted that "Calvinism" refers not to the Presbyterian denomination but to the so called "five-points" from the Canons of Dort. From Article 15 of the first Main Point of Doctrine: “And this is the decree of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.”
While there certainly may be Calvinists who believe God authors sin, such belief is contrary to the doctrines of Calvinism itself. This fact (as stated in the Canons of Dort, which attributes the idea that God authors sin as a blasphemous thought) is not something that can be honestly debated. That said, we have had what I have referred to as neo-Calvinists here (I don't know why as they have their own forum, i.e., the dog house) that hold "hyper" views (views taken from Calvinism but to unwarranted conclusions). But the idea God authors sin is a departure from actual Calvinistic doctrine.
Free-will advocates have the same issue. There are people who share a common view in terms of the mode of divine knowledge, but take it to the unwarranted conclusion of Open Theism. In terms of the atonement, I believe the most dominant view in Scripture is the Christus Victor motif. But some, like Denny Weaver, take this to the extreme of denying penal substitution to create a non-violent atonement.
But, the bottom line is Calvinistic doctrine proves you are mistaking here (regardless of what some Calvinists may believe or teach). Likewise, Arminian doctrine proves others who would demonize the view wrong for the same reasons - Arminian doctrine clearly states that God, not man, is the author of salvation.
God the author of evil?! That is a foolish thought. Calvinism teaches no such thing.
As usual...you have no idea what you are talking about...you show yourself quite foolish suggesting anyone believes God is the author of sin. It is you who introduce such profane thoughts onto the threads, then you run and hide when answered...And I am telling you it is common among calvies. Open theism is not common among everyone else.
and yet if you read your bible you might see this;“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
Yes, but I must have missed that part where God commands Satan to do evil. Can you point that out?and yet if you read your bible you might see this;
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
The part that I bolded was the part where Satan was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do except touch Jobs life. God controlled the events, Satan did what he wanted to do......do you think killing his family was a good deed?Yes, but I must have missed that part where God commands Satan to do evil. Can you point that out?
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