Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

Jon c...
.all sinned..at one point in time...is what is taught...I will post it when iget to a keyboard

 

"Sinned" in Romans 3:23 is... Aorist, Active, Indicative...

From Course II, Lesson 2 :

What about kind of action? Mark it down, as its name suggests, the kind of action indicated by the aorist tense is undefined. Inasmuch as there is no definition of the kind of action, the emphasis is upon the fact of the action rather than the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the significance is that it happened. Whether it happened over a period of time or in an instant is not indicated.

 

I agree. However, we have to deal with the issue of babes in the womb that die, for example. They have not themselves sinned, that is an impossibility, and Paul's point is that all die because all sin.

The babe in the womb that dies shares one thing in common with all men who enter the world, and that is they are conceived and born separated from God. And that is the condition Christ remedied, for the Old Testament Saints (who died apart from the Atonement and Eternal Redemption), and for the New Covenant Saint, who unlike the Old Testament Saint is reconciled to God immediately at Salvation.

The translation you use makes it pretty clear that death spread to all men, not sin. We could view that separation as the sin inherited, because it is a state that is passed down. But, we cannot equate that to sin when sin must first be committed for one to be guilty. That was the case for Adam, right?

Correct, because they personally sinned.

And that is the focus of the discussion: where do we see that?

We see death as the inevitable consequence for all men, but again, what sin would we charge to the infant in the womb?

They died because they could not refrain from sinning.

Now contrast that with the promise of the New Birth:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


It is necessary for natural man to have God's intervention in the removal of sin, who even when born again, remains in fallen flesh.

Man's nature is bent towards sin, the new creature has the guidance of GOd in identifying sin and removing it from their daily conversation.

That is a great question, and I would suggest to you that the answer lies in the fact that all men are conceived, and born...dead:


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


When Christ states "I am the Living Bread," and says men must eat of that Bread, and clarifies that the Bread is His flesh, what He is saying is men must believe on His Sacrifice of Himself.

That is how a man "eats of His Flesh."

And what He is saying here is that if a man does not eat of this Bread...he has no life in Him.

And one of the most basic principles of the Incarnation is that Christ came to bestow everlasting life to mankind, the implication being...He was not doing so prior to His Coming. This is a worthy study, and if you look into it you will see that all from Adam to Moses, and all under the Law...did not receive everlasting life. If they had, then we would have two sources for Eternal Life, and we know that is not the case.

So let's look at your question again:

Personal sin is a cause for physical death, there is no question, That is what happened to Adam. He went from close communion with God, and having access to the tree of Life, to being thrust out of the Garden where he no longer had that, and died. His descendants are born separated from God, and...

...dead.

He does distinguish the cause for man's condition, but, the death that Christ remedies is spiritual, not physical.

In relation to man, Adam did commit the Original Sin, and he is the reason why we are all born without the life of God.

Not so. I do not need to view Adam's sin as my own, hence the reason why I (or any man would be judged) an under condemnation. We are shown the distinction right in the very text:


Romans 5:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


In view is the sin of the individual, not an inherited sin from Adam.

It's not Paul's doctrine, it is the doctrines of men.

Which do not, in my view, even scratch the surface of the relevant elements of mankind's condition. Its easy to say "You inherited sin from Adam," but, again I ask...

...where do we see that in Scripture?

Not necessary, lol, great post anyway. Just need to stir up the conversation and the best way to come to conclusions is usually by addressing the objections raised to positions held.

As it is said, "Remove everything that is not possible and that which is possible remains." Or something along those lines, lol.


God bless.

 

First, an aborted baby is human, that is just basic science, my friend.

Secondly, yes, an aborted baby can be saved, because they receive of the same grace the Old Testament Saints received, who also died not...

1....having received the Atonement;
2...not having been born again;
3...not having been reconciled to God;
4...never having professed faith in the Risen Savior;

Why would God forbear eternal judgment on the Old Testament Saint and not do so for a babe in the womb who dies before ever gaining the ability to sin?

He, or she...belong to God.

When we are conceived we receive a spirit. The spirit of a man is not necessarily identical with the flesh that houses the spirit. When we are raised from the dead it is doubtful that we will be the Age, or identical in appearance to that which we were when we die physically.

Numerous people did not identify Jesus Christ after He was raised in glorified form, and the infant or young child that dies will be no less a spirit than you and I.


God bless.

 

You do realize that the difference between a baby that is not born yet vs. a baby that is born is simply his/her location, right?

 

"JonC,

Hello JonC
Have been driving alot...things are okay...have had some nice gospel opportunities...I have been reading more than posting lately.
I had the opportunity to meet with a Pastor who has written a few books, and another that lives about 15 miles away.....reading both their books as well as my usual ride along books...lol

JonC....I have sort of observed your M.O. in how you post....so I relax and look at what you offer....

Lets look at that....Here is an excerpt from Calvinism/Arminianism...by W.R.Downing

This passage describes the horrible ethical, intellectual, spiritual, moral and social history of mankind abandoned by God to its own sinful tendencies and passions.
This has great epistemological implications Kai. kaqw.j ouvk evdoki,masan to.n qeo.n e;cein evn evpignw,sei( pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj avdo,kimon nou/n, The terms (evdoki,masan... avdo,kimon) connote “disapproved” [after testing, rejected] or “reprobated” [Latin]. “being filled” is to be construed with each of the following: “all [kinds or forms of] unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness...” “Full of” is to be construed with each of the following: [being filled to the point of overflowing or bursting with] “envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity...” oi{tine" toV dikaivwma tou' qeou' ejpignovnte". They are such ones who [rel. pron., stressing character] as the judgment of God [emph. pos.] fully comprehending...” evpignw,sij denotes full or adequate knowledge. They are fully aware of Divine judgment upon their actions. 395 pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/, “For all sinned [aor., sinned in Adam], and are continually coming short [pres., denoting continuous action] of the glory of God.” 396 “...all have sinned.” (pa,ntej h[marton). The aor. tense signifies an event, “all sinned [in Adam].” This refers to original sin, not subsequent or personal sins. 397 (u`phkou,sate de. evk kardi,aj eivj o]n paredo,qhte tu,pon didach/j) Lit: “...[that] to which you were handed over [emph. pos.] pattern of teaching...” Believers have been pressed—reshaped, conformed to, molded—into the Gospel pattern by the grace of God. They have become “willing bondslaves to righteousness.” 398 Unbelievers have never been free from the claims of righteousness. The idea is rather one of “disengaged.” Righteousness had no power to engage them, i.e., to motivate or empower them. 399 to. fro,nhma th/j sarko.j, emph. the content or process of thought. e;cqra eivj [enmity, hatred] qeo,n( tw/| ga.r no,mw| tou/ qeou/ ouvc u`pota,ssetai( ouvde. ga.r du,natai.\The unregenerate mind has a hatred for God and does not possess the dynamic or power (ouvde….du,natai) to submit to Divine truth. 143
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)400
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.) (Eph. 2:1–5)401
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. (Eph. 4:17–19)402
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. (Col. 2:13)
400 yuciko.j de. a;nqrwpoj [man at the apex of his powers. Used of the great philosophers] ouv de,cetai [does not intelligently welcome with the hand, cf. “dexterous”] ta. tou/ pneu,matoj tou/ qeou/\ mwri,a ga.r [foolish (emph. pos.), hence, tasteless, insipid, cf. “moron,” “morose,” mentally deficient] auvtw/| evstin kai. ouv du,natai [not able, having no dynamic] gnw/nai( o[ti pneumatikw/j avnakri,netaiÅ There must be spiritual life before there can be spiritual perception. 401 The word “dead” is not a verb, but a noun following a pres. ptc. (o;ntaj nekrou.j) giving the connotation of a continued or unchanging state. The term used in these verses is “corpse” (nekro,j), i.e., wholly and totally unresponsive to spiritual life and realities. The use of the noun rather than the verb for “dead” makes the expression much stronger. The parenthetical expression at the end of this passage emphasizes that salvation by grace is nothing less than the impartation of spiritual life. 402 evn mataio,thti tou/ noo.j auvtw/n Lit: “in the futility of their thinking evskotwme,noi th/| dianoi,a| o;ntej. The ptc. is placed last, making the terms “darkened” and “the understanding” emphatic by pos. The term “understanding” (dia,noia) denotes the faculty of knowing, understanding or moral reflection. The entire statement (Eph. 4:17–19) demonstrates both the epistemological futility of unregenerate man and the resulting moral judgment of God upon such ignorance. th.n a;gnoian th.n ou=san evn auvtoi/j( dia. th.n pw,rwsin th/j kardi,aj auvtw/n. The term “ignorance” (th.n a;gnoian) denotes want of knowledge or perception. The reason given here is “the blindness of their own hearts”—a willful, culpable blindness. Man does not know God; man does not want to know God. 144




THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE FALL
The consequences of the fall or apostasy of man from God were and are inclusive—spiritual, moral ethical and physical. No part of man’s nature has escaped. His intellect, affections and will have been perverted by and brought under the reigning power of sin. Five issues are relevant to the subject of depravity: the consequences of Adam’s sin, the reality of spiritual death, the reigning power of sin, the noetic effects of sin, and the reality of Satanic blindness.
407 The irresponsibility of Adam is evident. He blamed both God and the woman rather than himself. But God held him responsible as the responsible head of the marriage relationship. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world...” 149
THE IMPUTATION OF ADAM’S SIN AND ITS CONSEQUENCES
Adam did not merely sin as an individual, but as the federal head and representative of the human race.408 Thus, the sin of Adam—original sin—was imputed to all his posterity. Even if a person could begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of original sin and the inescapable inheritance of a corrupted or sinful nature. The condemnation, guilt, polluting reality and power of sin are thus inescapable. Sin permeated the entire human race and immediately began to exercise its deceptive, controlling and perverting influence upon and within the human personality. Every human being is thus a sinner from conception—a sinner by imputation [original sin or the imputation of Adam’s sin], a sinner by nature [the inherited sinful nature of fallen Adam], and a sinner by choice and practice [the reality and expression of personal sin] (Rom. 5:12; Gen. 5:3; Psa. 51:5; Psa. 58:3; Eccl. 7:20; Rom. 1:18–32; Rom. 3:9–18).

 

ibid;
Nothing short of a “spiritual birth,” or the total renewal of the inner being, is necessary for any human being to see spiritual realities or enter into them. Man by nature is saddled with an insurmountable inability apart from regenerating grace.

zhtei/n to.n qeo,n( eiv a;ra ge yhlafh,seian auvto.n kai. eu[roien( kai, ge ouv makra.n avpo. e`no.j e`ka,stou h`mw/n u`pa,rcontaÅ evn auvtw/| ga.r zw/men kai. kinou,meqa kai. evsme,n... The witness of God in history and providence, especially as seen in the rise and fall of succeeding civilizations should be clearly noted by anyone acquainted with history and cause that person to seek out God. The unregenerate person, if moved to search out the God of history at all, is pictured as blindly groping for the reality of the God of history and providence—although the God of history is omnipresent, imminent and the sustainer of all persons and things! “Feel after” (yhlafh,seian), to grope, from ya,w, to touch, to run the fingers over a surface.

Although God is imminent in creation, history and providence, the unregenerate mind can only blindly grope after him. Such are the noetic effects of sin upon the unregenerate thought–process.

VApokalu,ptetai ga.r ovrgh. qeou/ avpV ouvranou/ (perf., emph. pos.), “stands revealed” much stronger than the simple pres. tense. “Hold” (katecovntwn), pres. ptc., “...are constantly or habitually holding down [suppressing]...” Unregenerate individuals constantly seek to suppress the truth by their sinfulness.


“Without excuse,” (avnapologh,touj), without a defense, or apologetic. The witness of the created universe is so great as to leave men without a defense before God as to their accountability to perceive his eternal power and Godhead. ...gno,ntej to.n qeo.n ouvc w`j qeo.n evdo,xasan... “...having known God, not as God [emph. pos.] did they glorify Him...” This has great epistemological implications. Not to glorify God as he is marks a departure from truth and is the first step in apostasy.


avllV evmataiw,qhsan evn toi/j dialogismoi/j auvtw/n... Lit: “became futile in their reasonings...” When man turned from God, he turned from all possibility of knowing reality and truth. He became epistemologically bankrupt.

kai. evskoti,sqh h` avsu,netoj auvtw/n kardi,aÅ “...darkened became their incapacitated heart...” avsu,netoj denotes the inability to put things together (from su,n, together with, and I]hmi, to put or place). In the fall, man lost the ability to grasp reality and truth inclusively, and became both fragmented and darkened [disoriented] in his thinking fa,skontej ei=nai sofoi. evmwra,nqhsan... “In the very process of professing themselves [pres. ptc.] to be wise, they became fools [aor.].” The term “fools” connotes the idea of insipid, mentally deficient.

inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Rom. 1:18–32)394
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)395
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. (Rom. 5:12)396
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom. 6:17–18)397
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (Rom. 6:20)398
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:7–8)

This passage describes the horrible ethical, intellectual, spiritual, moral and social history of mankind abandoned by God to its own sinful tendencies and passions. This has great epistemological implications Kai. kaqw.j ouvk evdoki,masan to.n qeo.n e;cein evn evpignw,sei( pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj avdo,kimon nou/n, The terms (evdoki,masan... avdo,kimon) connote “disapproved” [after testing, rejected] or “reprobated” [Latin]. “being filled” is to be construed with each of the following: “all [kinds or forms of] unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness...” “Full of” is to be construed with each of the following: [being filled to the point of overflowing or bursting with] “envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity...” oi{tine" toV dikaivwma tou' qeou' ejpignovnte". They are such ones who [rel. pron., stressing character] as the judgment of God [emph. pos.] fully comprehending...” evpignw,sij denotes full or adequate knowledge. They are fully aware of Divine judgment upon their actions. 395 pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/, “For all sinned [aor., sinned in Adam], and are continually coming short [pres., denoting continuous action] of the glory of God.” 396 “...all have sinned.” (pa,ntej h[marton). The aor. tense signifies an event, “all sinned [in Adam].” This refers to original sin, not subsequent or personal sins. 397 (u`phkou,sate de. evk kardi,aj eivj o]n paredo,qhte tu,pon didach/j) Lit: “...[that] to which you were handed over [emph. pos.] pattern of teaching...” Believers have been pressed—reshaped, conformed to, molded—into the Gospel pattern by the grace of God. They have become “willing bondslaves to righteousness.”

Unbelievers have never been free from the claims of righteousness. The idea is rather one of “disengaged.” Righteousness had no power to engage them, i.e., to motivate or empower them. 399 to. fro,nhma th/j sarko.j, emph. the content or process of thought. e;cqra eivj [enmity, hatred] qeo,n( tw/| ga.r no,mw| tou/ qeou/ ouvc u`pota,ssetai( ouvde. ga.r du,natai.\The unregenerate mind has a hatred for God and does not possess the dynamic or power (ouvde….du,natai) to submit to Divine truth. 143
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)400
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.) (Eph. 2:1–5)401
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. (Eph. 4:17–19)402
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. (Col. 2:13)
400 yuciko.j de. a;nqrwpoj [man at the apex of his powers. Used of the great philosophers] ouv de,cetai [does not intelligently welcome with the hand, cf. “dexterous”] ta. tou/ pneu,matoj tou/ qeou/\ mwri,a ga.r [foolish (emph. pos.), hence, tasteless, insipid, cf. “moron,” “morose,” mentally deficient] auvtw/| evstin kai. ouv du,natai [not able, having no dynamic] gnw/nai( o[ti pneumatikw/j avnakri,netaiÅ There must be spiritual life before there can be spiritual perception. 401 The word “dead” is not a verb, but a noun following a pres. ptc. (o;ntaj nekrou.j) giving the connotation of a continued or unchanging state. The term used in these verses is “corpse” (nekro,j), i.e., wholly and totally unresponsive to spiritual life and realities. The use of the noun rather than the verb for “dead” makes the expression much stronger. The parenthetical expression at the end of this passage emphasizes that salvation by grace is nothing less than the impartation of spiritual life. 402 evn mataio,thti tou/ noo.j auvtw/n Lit: “in the futility of their thinking evskotwme,noi th/| dianoi,a| o;ntej. The ptc. is placed last, making the terms “darkened” and “the understanding” emphatic by pos. The term “understanding” (dia,noia) denotes the faculty of knowing, understanding or moral reflection. The entire statement (Eph. 4:17–19) demonstrates both the epistemological futility of unregenerate man and the resulting moral judgment of God upon such ignorance. th.n a;gnoian th.n ou=san evn auvtoi/j( dia. th.n pw,rwsin th/j kardi,aj auvtw/n. The term “ignorance” (th.n a;gnoian) denotes want of knowledge or perception. The reason given here is “the blindness of their own hearts”—a willful, culpable blindness. Man does not know God; man does not want to know God. 144

 

It might affect my thinking.

At this point with the simplicity (as compared to some of Paul's statements) of the Romans 5:12 sentence - probably not.

They (TC,JoJ) are holding back for a reason and I too would be interested in their view(s).

 

I think the biggest problem with the traditional view of what is called "original sin" is - what does God do with babies/children who die who have not come to the age of accountability? Eternal life or eternal damnation.

The answer I gave is that He regenerates them.

This should not bother C folks believing as they do that the elect are regenerated before they believe.

John the Baptist - regenerated in the womb?

 

short answer is...it is both....we sinned in Adam.....we also sin by our own experience..
also Gen 1:31...Adam pre fall....was nevertheless.....untested....they speak of this as original righteousness....
As representative head....he failed...

To help me understand....I look to the Last Adam....His incarnation, His Active and Passive obedience were unique...He never fails.

JONC.....I just offered some lengthy portions containing information....I know you will take time to investigate....been running all around lately,Mich, tn, al ga fla.....in pa heading in to ny now

 

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

This statement leaves it all in the hands of God....