How Did the Fall of Adam Affect the Lord Jesus?

It's just a question, Martin, and your answer is still pending.

How is the babe in the womb charged with sin? Does not God hold men accountable for the sin they commit? Based on the knowledge He has revealed to them? Isn't this the premise of statements such as...


Romans 5:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


...and...


Acts 17:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Beginning with Adam, can you show me one man who was held accountable for sin that had not first received the will of God, that they are found in violation of?

I take the view that Psalms 51 does not nullify the wondrous perspective the Psalmist gives on God's creative glory in procreation. There are a number of passages which show this as glorious, rather than something to be despised. David is referring to Man's condition in Psalm 51, not specifically making his formation in the womb something heinous.


Psalm 58
King James Version (KJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

First, I will ask you...what about the righteous? The only one I know of filled with the Holy Ghost from birth is John the Baptist.

Secondly...there are none righteous, remember? This is given in a temporal context, from man's perspective, not God's. From God's perspective the "righteous" among men are still in the same boat the "wicked here are in.

All men go astray from the womb, that is due to our separation from God.

And can I remind you of why David wrote Psalm 51? Despite a relationship with God, he was still a murderer, liar, and adulterer.

A puppy doesn't have to be trained to mess on the floor, chew up what he ought not, or bite people.

Do puppies have a sin nature as well?




God bless.

 

Incorrect. Until sin entered the world, and death through sin, no one needed a saviour. And?

So Adam's heart was wicked in relation to God on the day God made him? Yes or no.

I hope that you will realise that mischaracterization of other people's beliefs is not acceptable. We have fallen out before. Let's try to treat each other better. Alternatively, show me where I have ever suggested that Adam was anything else but a man.

Let's just agree that I am a would-be secular philosopher and a bumbling handless clown when it comes to Scripture, and that you have the insight, the master grasp, the spiritual insight and theological nous of which true biblical savants are made.
Then perhaps you can condescend to answer my question.

Well don't do it then. Just answer my questions, all of which are based on Scripture.

 

I already answered this by referring you to Psalm 51:5-6 and Psalm 58:3-5. I will add Romans 5:14.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse (Romans 1:18-21; and e.g. Numbers 15:22ff.

I agree with you, Procreation is wonderful; Man's condition is fallen.

All men are sinners; all men need a Saviour, and one is gloriously provided in the Lord Jesus Christ. 'Nor is their salvation in any other.'

A puppy isn't made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin.

And you also. I'm sorry to be so brief, but I have two sermons to deliver on the Lord's day and need to prepare.

 

You create an unrealistic scenario, Martin. Even men "in the flesh" can please God in a temporal context.

Consider:


Genesis 7
King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Luke 1:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


You take "they that are in the flesh" to an extreme to the exclusion of some pretty basic principles. The context deals with a temporal context, and cannot be made a concrete absolute by which you interpret other passages by.

Noah pleased God, so did Zacharias and Elisabeth, but, we don't have an eternal perspective in view.

Certainly God could be pleased by Adam, but that does not mean he was not capable of displeasing God either. There isn't a one way or no way aspect in this. It was not until Adam sinned and was separated from the Provision of God that there arose the need for Reconciliation.

Adam would have needed a Savior prior to his Fall, because Adam's original state was not that of a state of eternal union with God. At least we are never told that. If he were in union with God on an eternal basis, then we have just supported those who reject Eternal Security.

We might look at Adam as the "puppy state" of man, lol. We might go so far as to be glad Adam did fall, because had he not, then the full Plan of God, which was to immerse men into Himself and give them eternal bodies would not have become the hope we now have.


God bless.

 

And I addressed your Scriptural support.

And you still have not answered the question: what sin would you, or anyone, or God...charge to the infant in the womb?

I will answer for you: none.

Sin is the result of first, a knowledge of what is to be done, or not to be done, and secondly...violating that knowledge.

The babe in the womb has no such knowledge. For that matter, many people involved in Churchianity don't either.

There is no "ignorance of the law is no excuse" to be found in Romans 1:


Romans 1:18-21
King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Or in Romans 2 for that matter:


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


The "Law of God" is not limited to the Covenant of Law, or the Written Law, it is simply the Will of God revealed to men, and what Paul makes clear are two important points:

1. All men have received of the Law through an internal witness;

2. Men will be judged according to their response to that which is revealed unto them.

And this has no application to babes in the womb, who often die before a conscious existence can be attributed to them (meaning, prior to a brain even coming into being).


As far as offering for sin committed unawares, keep in mind that we do not have an eternal context for that either. In view is a physical death penalty, which is the penalty imposed for violation of the Covenant of Law.

I will remind you we cannot impose an eternal context into that penalty lest we bring demand upon ourselves to violate the Word of God and implicitly teach eternal life being obtained through the keeping of the Law.

This is true. So why take David's speaking of man's condition and create a concrete absolute by which our understanding of procreation is made detestable? The babe in the womb is "innocent" of having committed sin, but still under the condemnation that arose from man's separation from God in the Fall. When that babe is born, he/she does not immediately sin, but has to grow in consciousness, understand concepts, and then violate those concepts. If they die in the womb, what has to be remedied is not their sin, but their condition of separation. And while I know you reject the position that the Old Testament Saints died still in need of Atonement and Reconciliation and the Eternal Indwelling of God (at least I am sure you used to), the babe in the womb is in no different state when they die in the womb than the Old Testament Saint was when they died prior to Atonement and Reconciliation.

I agree, though I see no relevance to what I said.

True, but the point is that you are saying man sins by nature, which is true, but we see Gentiles performing the works of the Law "by nature."

What's it going to be? To say man will sin by nature and thus has a sin nature makes about as much sense as saying animals have a sin nature because they also do things they aren't supposed to. And the only thing that allows man to perform the works of the Law is that God first intervenes in their lives...

...with the revelation of His will to men. He does this through the testimony of Creation, through the internal witness (as seen in Romans 2), and through direct revelation. In Romans 2-3 Paul contrasts Gentiles who do not have the Word of God with the Jews who did, and neither have an advantage over the other. Both receive revelation from God of His will, and both will be judged according to their response to that revelation. For not the hearers of the Law shall be justified, but the doers of the Law.

And I hope God blesses your message, my friend.

Happy studies.


God bless.

 

I take the view that Satan fell prior to the Creation of the physical universe.

But what is in view in Romans 5...


Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


...is a specificity of Adam's sin, and sin entering the world as a result of Adam's actions, hence the entrance of death for man because of that sin.

So we cannot attribute sin and death to Satan, but to Adam, as Paul does.

"The devil made me do it" won't stand up in God's Court, lol.


God bless.

 

lol

Good one, Martin.

I just wanted to say that is my own view, and would be glad to discuss this if you have an opposing view.


God bless.

 

But what you are not also mentioning is that one who has the Spirit can be carnal as well.

The penalty of sin is death, and Christians are still under that penalty in the physical sense, as shown in Ananias and Sapphira, and those who died for partaking of Communion unworthily.

Not true.

The Gentiles in view here...


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


...were not born again, eternally indwelt believers, simply those being obedient to the Law of God written on their hearts.

All knowledge of God is made known to men by God only. That is how He has done it from the Garden until present day. What has changed is the revelation being revealed. The Law was not revealed to men in Adam through Moses' day, and the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to those under Law (the Age of Law).

It's a little more complicated than that.

You assume you are correct in your position. You have asserted only a minute part of the relevant elements needed to be discussed in order to come to a proper conclusion. You are going to extremes such as there are either those who are carnal or those not carnal, but we have an entire Old Testament of people who had not received the Promises of God who, though not having the Indwelling of Christ, still performed the works of the Law, because God showed that to them directly. This is the Spirit's ministry as well, the difference being...the revelation being provided in the differing Ages.


God bless.