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How Did the Fall of Adam Affect the Lord Jesus?

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Iconoclast

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"JonC,

I believe Adam sinned just as we sin
That is not the Apostle Pauls belief...is it?

"JonC,

Yes. Jesus had the same nature as we have
,

While he came in a body of flesh and blood....His body was...in the likeness of sinful flesh...it was not sinful flesh as we all have.
but without sin.
yes...that is because of the incarnation.

There exists no biblical text that says we have a nature which is fallen.
Maybe not to you...but the rest of the church see's it exactly that way.

instead, we have a human nature and are enslaved to sin and death. Jesus had the same nature that we have, [/QUOTE]
No he did not..He was not "conceived in sin"...he did not have sinful flesh...He was not born spiritually dead as we all were...


yet He conquered sin and death. He is victorious where Adam was not.[
yes He did.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
JonC,



we can say much more than that....



You say this several times....yet it is a foolish statement and not looking for an answer,,,,Adam existed before the fall...He was not created as fallen.
He continued to exist after the fall...but had failed the test.

He was in original righteousness...yet untested. The test came he failed and sin and death entered...and us in him.



The misunderstanding, or lack of understanding of judaism has nothing to do with the scriptural teaching.
Adam did exist before the fall (and he was "sinless" before he sinned). I agree that Adam had failed the test, but I believe that Adam failed the test by setting his mind on the flesh rather than on God.
 

Darrell C

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So Adam was 'in the flesh.' Now since 'they that are in the flesh cannot please God,' You must believe that Adam did not please God when he tended the Garden, nor when he named the animals. You must also believe that God created Adam with a heart that is 'desperately wicked.' [That Adam needed a Saviour after he fell into sin is not at issue]


You create an unrealistic scenario, Martin. Even men "in the flesh" can please God in a temporal context.

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' There are no exceptions to this rule. If Zechariah, Elizabeth and Noah found grace in God's eyes (as they did), it is because they were not in the flesh but in the Spirit. They were justified by grace through faith.

You cancel your own argument, brother: we can simply view Adam as "being in the flesh" as opposed to being/walking in the Spirit.

You also cancel grace through faith, implying that they pleased God through what they did, which itself cancels grace.

Any time mankind walk in the Spirit, it is not a reward for good works, but the means by which we "please" God. The filling of the Spirit is usually for the purpose of ministry and service.

The unrealistic nature of your scenario is that you interject Adam not pleasing GOd in the Garden, and it is safe to say that he did please God...until he sinned. At that moment we can relate his actions to being "in the flesh.


Once again, I'm sorry not to be able to respond to your other posts. I am going to make one post to @JonC and then I'm finished here until I get my sermons done. I'm aware that I didn't respond to you as I promised on another topic, and I apologize for that also. :Redface

Not a problem, that takes priority over everything that takes place here.

Again, may God bless your studies.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

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Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is that, the death, that the sin of Adam brought to all men?

That's actually a complicated question, because we have two deaths we must be aware of in Scripture: physical, and spiritual.

In large part physical death is the primary penalty for Adam's sin. He lost access to the Tree of Life, which we presume contributed to continued physical existence (it never has nor ever will bestow eternal life, only God can do that through immersing believers into Himself). If you look at the Law, the penalty was physical death, not spiritual. If you look at the provision of vicarious death (animal sacrifice), all that granted was extended physical life.

Secondly, I don't think we can attribute full power of death to Satan, but rather he is a cause of death in man, because just as he caused Adam to sin (and therefore die), his intent is to destroy men whenever he can. God is Sovereign, and that means over both life and death (as seen in the example of Job, Satan was forbidden to kill him (physically)).

Third, in regards to spiritual death, or, Eternal Judgment, the basis of punishment is not because we descend from Adam, but because we...sin. Every man will be judged according to the sin he commits, as shown in passages such as Ezekiel 18 (which is a physical context), Hebrews 10:26-28, and 2 Peter 2.

So the death in view would first be physical death. That this extends to eternal judgment can be seen, but I don't think we can dogmatically assert that everyone put to death in violation of the Law will undergo Eternal Separation, because even among Christians today the (physical) death penalty still exists. God can take the life of a Christian who is unrepentant in sin. This is seen in Ananias and Sapphira (and of course this applies assuming they were born again believers) and those who died because of partaking of Communion unworthily.


Why did God put the man in the garden he had planted where the devil happened to be.

Show me where Satan "was in the Garden" when God created it.

What we are told is that it was the Serpent, and based on New Testament revelation we know that it was Satan behind what took place. I look at this as more of an instance of possession rather than the serpent was actually Satan, or at least, think that is more likely (because the serpent is cursed). Secondly, I think we also consider the fact that Satan is said in a couple places to be one who roams the earth, which means Satan was a visitor to the Garden for his evil purpose, not a resident.

I think it a mistake to consider Satan as being part of Creation. There is no mention of Angels being part of Creation, other than as observers.


Was the purpose of putting him there to test the man or for some purpose relative to the mission of the Son of God to be manifested as a man, flesh and blood?

God didn't need to test Adam, He knew he would sin, and this before He even created the heavens and the earth.

Angels and demons are spirits, not gods, not men. The heavens and the earth were created for man, not Angels. Hell was created for Satan and his demons, and we cannot say for sure when that took place, but, it likely took place prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.


You said the sinful devil already existed before the man was created in the image of God, therefore, did sin have to take place in order that; through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, to take place?

From a perspective dealing with man, perhaps. From a perspective dealing with fallen Angels, not really. God could have destroyed Satan and his cohorts at any time, and still can. Apparently they serve a purpose for now, but we can look at the Millennial Kingdom to see that Satan need not be on earth in order for man to sin. It might be viewed as similar to boot camp, which has obstacle courses, physical training, and drill instructors (who I am sure more than a few have likened to demons, lol).

But again, God knew in advance that Adam would sin, and that death would come to all men, and that men would need to be reconciled to Himself. I think Reconciliation will place man in a higher state than Adam was when he was created, because God immerses believers in Himself, and will give them bodies suited to everlasting existence, which Adam was not created with. At least, that is how I see it. If Adam had not sinned, it is likely he would have continued to live forever, having access to the Tree of Life. But God knew that the result of man falling and being reconciled to Himself would produce a creation far greater than that originally designed.

That is the Body of Christ, the Church.


God bless.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That's actually a complicated question, because we have two deaths we must be aware of in Scripture: physical, and spiritual.

In large part physical death is the primary penalty for Adam's sin. He lost access to the Tree of Life, which we presume contributed to continued physical existence (it never has nor ever will bestow eternal life, only God can do that through immersing believers into Himself). If you look at the Law, the penalty was physical death, not spiritual. If you look at the provision of vicarious death (animal sacrifice), all that granted was extended physical life.

Secondly, I don't think we can attribute full power of death to Satan, but rather he is a cause of death in man, because just as he caused Adam to sin (and therefore die), his intent is to destroy men whenever he can. God is Sovereign, and that means over both life and death (as seen in the example of Job, Satan was forbidden to kill him (physically)).

Third, in regards to spiritual death, or, Eternal Judgment, the basis of punishment is not because we descend from Adam, but because we...sin. Every man will be judged according to the sin he commits, as shown in passages such as Ezekiel 18 (which is a physical context), Hebrews 10:26-28, and 2 Peter 2.

So the death in view would first be physical death. That this extends to eternal judgment can be seen, but I don't think we can dogmatically assert that everyone put to death in violation of the Law will undergo Eternal Separation, because even among Christians today the (physical) death penalty still exists. God can take the life of a Christian who is unrepentant in sin. This is seen in Ananias and Sapphira (and of course this applies assuming they were born again believers) and those who died because of partaking of Communion unworthily.




Show me where Satan "was in the Garden" when God created it.

What we are told is that it was the Serpent, and based on New Testament revelation we know that it was Satan behind what took place. I look at this as more of an instance of possession rather than the serpent was actually Satan, or at least, think that is more likely (because the serpent is cursed). Secondly, I think we also consider the fact that Satan is said in a couple places to be one who roams the earth, which means Satan was a visitor to the Garden for his evil purpose, not a resident.

I think it a mistake to consider Satan as being part of Creation. There is no mention of Angels being part of Creation, other than as observers.




God didn't need to test Adam, He knew he would sin, and this before He even created the heavens and the earth.

Angels and demons are spirits, not gods, not men. The heavens and the earth were created for man, not Angels. Hell was created for Satan and his demons, and we cannot say for sure when that took place, but, it likely took place prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.




From a perspective dealing with man, perhaps. From a perspective dealing with fallen Angels, not really. God could have destroyed Satan and his cohorts at any time, and still can. Apparently they serve a purpose for now, but we can look at the Millennial Kingdom to see that Satan need not be on earth in order for man to sin. It might be viewed as similar to boot camp, which has obstacle courses, physical training, and drill instructors (who I am sure more than a few have likened to demons, lol).

But again, God knew in advance that Adam would sin, and that death would come to all men, and that men would need to be reconciled to Himself. I think Reconciliation will place man in a higher state than Adam was when he was created, because God immerses believers in Himself, and will give them bodies suited to everlasting existence, which Adam was not created with. At least, that is how I see it. If Adam had not sinned, it is likely he would have continued to live forever, having access to the Tree of Life. But God knew that the result of man falling and being reconciled to Himself would produce a creation far greater than that originally designed.

That is the Body of Christ, the Church.


God bless.
Great observation on "spiritual death". So many seem to invent the doctrine that the consequence of Adam's sin was that Adam died spiritually. The consequence, per Scripture, is twofold - a physical death and a damaged relationship with God because of sin.
 

Yeshua1

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Anyone who believes sin a biological problem misunderstands the issue. Whether or not all you listed hold that error, I can't say (from past experience I won't take your word for it).
I hold to sin being a spiritual make up of us, as we have a soul/spirit inside this physical body, and THAT aspect of us, along with our flesh, became corrupted and tainted by the Fall of Adam!
 

Yeshua1

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Yes. The Biblical evidence for this is overwhelming and I haven't even got to Genesis 3 yet. That he fell into sin is self-evident, but the temptation did not arise within him or Eve, but came from without, but once he succumbed to it his whole nature changed..

That would be true, but both Cain and Abel were fallen creatures, hence the need for sacrifice.

Sin is indeed a matter of the will, but the will of man is fallen and in bondage to the flesh (e.g. Jeremiah 13:23).
All the questions I have asked you have been Bible-based. Let me reprise some of them for you:

God pronounced creation 'good' before the creation of Adam. After the creation of Adam, He pronounced it 'very good.' So the arrival of Adam actually improved creation. Now if Adam was created as just a regular guy and if 'those who are in the flesh [i.e sinful nature] cannot please God,' then how could creation with him in it be 'very good' and since Adam came straight from the hands of God, how is God not the author of evil?

'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.' Men sin of their own volition, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Now: did Adam have such a heart when he was first created? 'The carnal mind is enmity against God.' Did Adam have such a mind when he was first created?

I also wrote:

But we have inherited Adam's fallen nature and in our natural state are 'non posse non peccare'-- not able not to sin. That is why we are 'by nature, children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Adam was not a child of wrath by nature, nor could he have been in a 'very good' creation.

There is nothing 'philosophical' about these; they are all based upon the Bible. But you are unwilling or unable to answer them, so it appears that my work here is done. :)
JonC seems to be the one here that is deviating from the scriptural truths concerning the fallen nature of man, and how Jesus could not be just as we are in His humanity, but akin to how Adam was in his before the fall!
 

Yeshua1

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The problem is that you seem to think nature itself is sinful. This is not biblical. Sin is in relation to God. Either Adam was created "of the Spirit" or "of the flesh". You can't have it both ways and pretend to hold a biblical definition of "nature". Adam was created "flesh" and we are born of "flesh". Did Adam sin before he sinned? No, that's absurd. Do we? No, that's absurd. James 1 tells us how we sin (hint - it's not because we were "born that way").

When we are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (our desires - and this does refer to our nature - the "flesh"). When we are carried away and enticed by the "flesh" (our own lusts), lust conceives and gives birth to sin.

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to Adam. And Jesus had the exact same nature - the Word was made flesh. But Jesus didn't sin (he wasn't carried away by his lusts).
Adam and Jesus both had sinless humanity for their natures, morally perfect, but when Adam sinned, his nature became carnal and natural, and Jesus never had THAT type of nature in Him!
 

Darrell C

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I hold to sin being a spiritual make up of us, as we have a soul/spirit inside this physical body, and THAT aspect of us, along with our flesh, became corrupted and tainted by the Fall of Adam!

I eat tacos while driving down the road!


God bless.
 

Darrell C

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Adam and Jesus both had sinless humanity for their natures, morally perfect, but when Adam sinned, his nature became carnal and natural, and Jesus never had THAT type of nature in Him!

Then you have decided that Christ could not have sinned?


God bless.
 

Yeshua1

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Adam had not sinned. Adam sinned. His nature did not change (at least we are not told in Scripture his nature changed). You are stuck in your traditions, caught between Rome and Scriprure.
God had to provide for Adam a sacrifice after the fall though, and Adam was afraid of God and no longer in relationship to him, so His nature did indeed change!
 

Darrell C

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When we say that which is born of flesh is flesh, it isn't flesh and bone that is in mind, but the soul.

Not the soul, but the spirit, and Spirit.

Man was created body and spirit, and became a soul, not that he received a soul.

And the contrast between being born of flesh is to being born of God (of the Spirit, born again, born from above). Being born of God is a spiritual resurrection, man being born dead, though he has a spirit and a body.


God bless.
 

Yeshua1

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Great observation on "spiritual death". So many seem to invent the doctrine that the consequence of Adam's sin was that Adam died spiritually. The consequence, per Scripture, is twofold - a physical death and a damaged relationship with God because of sin.
Much more than just damaged, as our spiritual connection to God died!
 

Yeshua1

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"JonC,


That is not the Apostle Pauls belief...is it?

"JonC,

,

While he came in a body of flesh and blood....His body was...in the likeness of sinful flesh...it was not sinful flesh as we all have.

yes...that is because of the incarnation.


Maybe not to you...but the rest of the church see's it exactly that way.
Jesus came in the likeness, not the sameness of us, for if His humanity nature was/is exactly same as what the fall did to us, he was not qualified to be the Messiah!
 

Darrell C

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God had to provide for Adam a sacrifice after the fall though, and Adam was afraid of God and no longer in relationship to him, so His nature did indeed change!

Does the nature of man change when we see him changed in his spirit, heart, mind?

No.

He is still possessed of the nature he was born into, the difference being his outlook, so to speak.

But when God changes the heart, spirit, and mind, then we see a change of nature, and this because we now have a nature that w did not have when conceived and born into this world, the nature of God:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.




2 Corinthians 5:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.



Adam died offering up the sacrifice of animals.


God bless.
 
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