How Did the Fall of Adam Affect the Lord Jesus?

[Darrell C]

I don't charge anyone with anything.

It's just a question, Martin, and your answer is still pending.

How is the babe in the womb charged with sin? Does not God hold men accountable for the sin they commit? Based on the knowledge He has revealed to them? Isn't this the premise of statements such as...


Romans 5:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


...and...


Acts 17:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Beginning with Adam, can you show me one man who was held accountable for sin that had not first received the will of God, that they are found in violation of?

However, the Bible is pretty clear, not only Psalm 51 but also Psalm 58:3.

I take the view that Psalms 51 does not nullify the wondrous perspective the Psalmist gives on God's creative glory in procreation. There are a number of passages which show this as glorious, rather than something to be despised. David is referring to Man's condition in Psalm 51, not specifically making his formation in the womb something heinous.


Psalm 58
King James Version (KJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

First, I will ask you...what about the righteous? The only one I know of filled with the Holy Ghost from birth is John the Baptist.

Secondly...there are none righteous, remember? This is given in a temporal context, from man's perspective, not God's. From God's perspective the "righteous" among men are still in the same boat the "wicked here are in.

All men go astray from the womb, that is due to our separation from God.

And can I remind you of why David wrote Psalm 51? Despite a relationship with God, he was still a murderer, liar, and adulterer.

Moreover, is this not what we observe? A little child has to be taught everything: how to be clean, how to hold a knife and fork, how to talk. Yet no one has to tell a child, "Now Johnny, this is how you tell a lie; you think of something that isn't true and then say it as if it is," or "now then little Jennie, this is how to be selfish; you keep you toys and don't let your sister play with them." They do these things without any help at all, because they have a fallen, sinful nature.

A puppy doesn't have to be trained to mess on the floor, chew up what he ought not, or bite people.

Do puppies have a sin nature as well?




God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Until death entered the world no one needed a Savior.

Incorrect. Until sin entered the world, and death through sin, no one needed a saviour. And?

You completely miss the mark on what nature is (and the nature of sin). The heart of man is wicked, but again this is in relation to God.

So Adam's heart was wicked in relation to God on the day God made him? Yes or no.

You can complain that God made Adam a little god who fell day long but that won't make it true.

I hope that you will realise that mischaracterization of other people's beliefs is not acceptable. We have fallen out before. Let's try to treat each other better. Alternatively, show me where I have ever suggested that Adam was anything else but a man.

Simply, Scripture tells us something your philosophy can't accept.

Let's just agree that I am a would-be secular philosopher and a bumbling handless clown when it comes to Scripture, and that you have the insight, the master grasp, the spiritual insight and theological nous of which true biblical savants are made.
Then perhaps you can condescend to answer my question.

I already said that I'm not interested in exploring theoretocal hypotheses.

Well don't do it then. Just answer my questions, all of which are based on Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It's just a question, Martin, and your answer is still pending.

How is the babe in the womb charged with sin? Does not God hold men accountable for the sin they commit? Based on the knowledge He has revealed to them? Isn't this the premise of statements such as...


Romans 5:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I already answered this by referring you to Psalm 51:5-6 and Psalm 58:3-5. I will add Romans 5:14.

Acts 17:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Beginning with Adam, can you show me one man who was held accountable for sin that had not first received the will of God, that they are found in violation of?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse (Romans 1:18-21; and e.g. Numbers 15:22ff.

I take the view that Psalms 51 does not nullify the wondrous perspective the Psalmist gives on God's creative glory in procreation. There are a number of passages which show this as glorious, rather than something to be despised. David is referring to Man's condition in Psalm 51, not specifically making his formation in the womb something heinous.

I agree with you, Procreation is wonderful; Man's condition is fallen.

Psalm 58
King James Version (KJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

First, I will ask you...what about the righteous? The only one I know of filled with the Holy Ghost from birth is John the Baptist.

Secondly...there are none righteous, remember? This is given in a temporal context, from man's perspective, not God's. From God's perspective the "righteous" among men are still in the same boat the "wicked here are in.

All men go astray from the womb, that is due to our separation from God.

And can I remind you of why David wrote Psalm 51? Despite a relationship with God, he was still a murderer, liar, and adulterer.

All men are sinners; all men need a Saviour, and one is gloriously provided in the Lord Jesus Christ. 'Nor is their salvation in any other.'

A puppy doesn't have to be trained to mess on the floor, chew up what he ought not, or bite people.

Do puppies have a sin nature as well?

A puppy isn't made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin.

God bless.

And you also. I'm sorry to be so brief, but I have two sermons to deliver on the Lord's day and need to prepare.

 

[JonC]

Incorrect. Until sin entered the world, and death through sin, no one needed a saviour. And?

So Adam's heart was wicked in relation to God on the day God made him? Yes or no.

I hope that you will realise that mischaracterization of other people's beliefs is not acceptable. We have fallen out before. Let's try to treat each other better. Alternatively, show me where I have ever suggested that Adam was anything else but a man.

Let's just agree that I am a would-be secular philosopher and a bumbling handless clown when it comes to Scripture, and that you have the insight, the master grasp, the spiritual insight and theological nous of which true biblical savants are made.
Then perhaps you can condescend to answer my question.
Well don't do it then. Just answer my questions, all of which are based on Scripture.

Let me get this right....you are saying that before Adam sinnned Adam had an sinless nature and after Adam sinned he had a sinful nature. That's like saying before Cain killed Abel he was not a murder but after Cain killed Abel he was. I'm not interested in philosophical games - the fact is that Adam never lost his original nature. Sin is, per Scripture, a matter of the will.

 

[Darrell C]

So Adam was 'in the flesh.' Now since 'they that are in the flesh cannot please God,' You must believe that Adam did not please God when he tended the Garden, nor when he named the animals.

You create an unrealistic scenario, Martin. Even men "in the flesh" can please God in a temporal context.

Consider:


Genesis 7
King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Luke 1:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


You take "they that are in the flesh" to an extreme to the exclusion of some pretty basic principles. The context deals with a temporal context, and cannot be made a concrete absolute by which you interpret other passages by.

Noah pleased God, so did Zacharias and Elisabeth, but, we don't have an eternal perspective in view.

Certainly God could be pleased by Adam, but that does not mean he was not capable of displeasing God either. There isn't a one way or no way aspect in this. It was not until Adam sinned and was separated from the Provision of God that there arose the need for Reconciliation.

You must also believe that God created Adam with a heart that is 'desperately wicked.' [That Adam needed a Saviour after he fell into sin is not at issue]

Adam would have needed a Savior prior to his Fall, because Adam's original state was not that of a state of eternal union with God. At least we are never told that. If he were in union with God on an eternal basis, then we have just supported those who reject Eternal Security.

We might look at Adam as the "puppy state" of man, lol. We might go so far as to be glad Adam did fall, because had he not, then the full Plan of God, which was to immerse men into Himself and give them eternal bodies would not have become the hope we now have.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I already answered this by referring you to Psalm 51:5-6 and Psalm 58:3-5. I will add Romans 5:14.

And I addressed your Scriptural support.

And you still have not answered the question: what sin would you, or anyone, or God...charge to the infant in the womb?

I will answer for you: none.

Sin is the result of first, a knowledge of what is to be done, or not to be done, and secondly...violating that knowledge.

The babe in the womb has no such knowledge. For that matter, many people involved in Churchianity don't either.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse (Romans 1:18-21; and e.g. Numbers 15:22ff.

There is no "ignorance of the law is no excuse" to be found in Romans 1:


Romans 1:18-21
King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Or in Romans 2 for that matter:


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


The "Law of God" is not limited to the Covenant of Law, or the Written Law, it is simply the Will of God revealed to men, and what Paul makes clear are two important points:

1. All men have received of the Law through an internal witness;

2. Men will be judged according to their response to that which is revealed unto them.

And this has no application to babes in the womb, who often die before a conscious existence can be attributed to them (meaning, prior to a brain even coming into being).


As far as offering for sin committed unawares, keep in mind that we do not have an eternal context for that either. In view is a physical death penalty, which is the penalty imposed for violation of the Covenant of Law.

I will remind you we cannot impose an eternal context into that penalty lest we bring demand upon ourselves to violate the Word of God and implicitly teach eternal life being obtained through the keeping of the Law.

I agree with you, Procreation is wonderful; Man's condition is fallen.

This is true. So why take David's speaking of man's condition and create a concrete absolute by which our understanding of procreation is made detestable? The babe in the womb is "innocent" of having committed sin, but still under the condemnation that arose from man's separation from God in the Fall. When that babe is born, he/she does not immediately sin, but has to grow in consciousness, understand concepts, and then violate those concepts. If they die in the womb, what has to be remedied is not their sin, but their condition of separation. And while I know you reject the position that the Old Testament Saints died still in need of Atonement and Reconciliation and the Eternal Indwelling of God (at least I am sure you used to), the babe in the womb is in no different state when they die in the womb than the Old Testament Saint was when they died prior to Atonement and Reconciliation.

All men are sinners; all men need a Saviour, and one is gloriously provided in the Lord Jesus Christ. 'Nor is their salvation in any other.'

I agree, though I see no relevance to what I said.

A puppy isn't made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin.

True, but the point is that you are saying man sins by nature, which is true, but we see Gentiles performing the works of the Law "by nature."

What's it going to be? To say man will sin by nature and thus has a sin nature makes about as much sense as saying animals have a sin nature because they also do things they aren't supposed to. And the only thing that allows man to perform the works of the Law is that God first intervenes in their lives...

...with the revelation of His will to men. He does this through the testimony of Creation, through the internal witness (as seen in Romans 2), and through direct revelation. In Romans 2-3 Paul contrasts Gentiles who do not have the Word of God with the Jews who did, and neither have an advantage over the other. Both receive revelation from God of His will, and both will be judged according to their response to that revelation. For not the hearers of the Law shall be justified, but the doers of the Law.

And you also. I'm sorry to be so brief, but I have two sermons to deliver on the Lord's day and need to prepare.

And I hope God blesses your message, my friend.

Happy studies.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Did the sin of the devil predate the creation of Adam. Is death the result of sin?

I take the view that Satan fell prior to the Creation of the physical universe.

But what is in view in Romans 5...


Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


...is a specificity of Adam's sin, and sin entering the world as a result of Adam's actions, hence the entrance of death for man because of that sin.

So we cannot attribute sin and death to Satan, but to Adam, as Paul does.

"The devil made me do it" won't stand up in God's Court, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks for that. It's right up there with the pope being Roman Catholic and what bears do in the woods.
You said that Adam 'needed a spiritual birth.' Is that still your view?

lol

Good one, Martin.

I just wanted to say that is my own view, and would be glad to discuss this if you have an opposing view.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Paul is contrasting those with and without the Spirit. To be without the Spirit is to be carnally minded. No one without the Spirit can be anything but carnally minded.

But what you are not also mentioning is that one who has the Spirit can be carnal as well.

The penalty of sin is death, and Christians are still under that penalty in the physical sense, as shown in Ananias and Sapphira, and those who died for partaking of Communion unworthily.

The carnal mind is at enmity with God. It will not submit to God's law, and it cannot. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. That's the nature of the those without the Spirit.

Not true.

The Gentiles in view here...


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


...were not born again, eternally indwelt believers, simply those being obedient to the Law of God written on their hearts.

All knowledge of God is made known to men by God only. That is how He has done it from the Garden until present day. What has changed is the revelation being revealed. The Law was not revealed to men in Adam through Moses' day, and the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to those under Law (the Age of Law).

It's no more complicated than that.

It's a little more complicated than that.

Seems we've reached an impasse. If you won't listen to Paul or Christ when they speak on the matter, what can I do?

You assume you are correct in your position. You have asserted only a minute part of the relevant elements needed to be discussed in order to come to a proper conclusion. You are going to extremes such as there are either those who are carnal or those not carnal, but we have an entire Old Testament of people who had not received the Promises of God who, though not having the Indwelling of Christ, still performed the works of the Law, because God showed that to them directly. This is the Spirit's ministry as well, the difference being...the revelation being provided in the differing Ages.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

The context of that statement is that all men sin (both those under the Law and those apart from the Law) and fall short of the glory of God. We fall short of the glory of God by nature, but by human nature and not by some mythological "fallen nature".

Romans 3:19-26
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Something happened to affect the very nature of Adam, for before he sinned, he always obeyed God, but after he sinned, his was in rebellion against God and disobeying Him...
The fall affected Adam both spiritually and physical fashion, and God has placed that upon all afterwards now found in Adam!

 

[Yeshua1]

we tried that already....don't you remember all of those requests for Scripture? You had none.

What verse says that Adam "spiritually died"?

For that matter, what verse says that Adam was "spiritually alive" to begin with?

What verse says a "sin nature" that was different from Adams human nature when he decided to sin was passed on to us?

What verse says it is our nature itself that constitutes sin?

Something happened to affect Adam and Eve at the Fall, was bad, made all afterwards born as sinners and spiritual dead in their sins, as per the scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

It depends on what you mean.

I am suggesting that we are all conceived in sin on the grounds of Psalm 51:

Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom. Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, Let the bones which You have broken rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.

We have natures that fall short of the glory of God (we have natures that sin...i.e., sinful natures).

I am,however, suggesting that we do not inherit a nature that has fallen because of Adam's sin. My suggestion is that Adam was created with a human nature and we also have that same human nature. Without God's Spirit in us and relying completely on God rather than our human natures, we sin and fall short of His glory. No passage of Scripture states that Adam was created with a nature that met or exceeded the glory of God.
Also, don't forget that God did not create Adam in the Garden. He created him and then placed him in the Garden. This is a difficult question as it brings up a couple of issues. First, when we read Scripture do we need to reconcile our view with that of the historical position of the believing church? If so, then we would hold to Origen's "Ransom Theory". If so, then there would have never been a Reformation. So to answer this part of the question, my response is that I believe Scripture to be the authority of our doctrine (I don't believe God gave special revelation to either Origen, Tertullian, Augustine, Calvin, or Luther and we just need to pick which one).

But more than that is the fact that there has never been one "historical position". Many here do not believe that Adam's sin is passed down biologically (Augustine). Many do not believe Adam's sin merely injured the image of God in man which is repaired in salvation (Tertullian). Scripture (and the historical positions of the church) affirms that Adam's sin had consequences to all of mankind. This has been debated for centuries (if we sinned "in Adam", "in and with Adam", if Adam is representative of the human race, etc). So your assumption is incorrect. I am not introducing new doctrine, although it may be a doctrine with which you lack familiarity.

All humans are born as sinners, as all were by God set to receive the same situation Adam had changed into once he sinned, as innocence and sinless took on now being sinners and sin/self natures!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe Adam sinned just as we sin (I believe James is applicable to Adam's sin as well as to ours). Are you suggesting "the Fall" occurred prior to Adam's sin? If so, to which verse are you referring?

he could not sin just as we do, for he was not a sinner until he made that choice, while it is our very natures to now disobey God, as born that way!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, Paul says differently. The carnal mind, iow, the natural man, is at enmity with God and cannot be subject to His law.

Any further discussion on this will hinge on Romans 8:7. You're going to Genesis with a host of erroneous and arbitrary assumptions. So let's discuss what Christ's Apostle said about the nature of man.

This is the very problem , as we must define what the sinnature really is, for if Jesus was born exactly same humanity as we now have, he was also a sinner!

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me get this right....you are saying that before Adam sinnned Adam had an sinless nature and after Adam sinned he had a sinful nature. That's like saying before Cain killed Abel he was not a murder but after Cain killed Abel he was. I'm not interested in philosophical games - the fact is that Adam never lost his original nature. Sin is, per Scripture, a matter of the will.

Martin is agreeing with the scriptures, as am I, as both of us would affirm that when was first created, was in a slnless natures state, after the fall, Adam had his nature changed to being a sinner now, and that is same nature all of us are born with also!

 

[JonC]

Something happened to affect the very nature of Adam, for before he sinned, he always obeyed God, but after he sinned, his was in rebellion against God and disobeying Him...
The fall affected Adam both spiritually and physical fashion, and God has placed that upon all afterwards now found in Adam!

What happened to make Cain murder because until he murdered he wasn't a murderer. What happened to make you commit your first sinful act?

Your post is both silly and unbiblical.

 

[JonC]

he could not sin just as we do, for he was not a sinner until he made that choice, while it is our very natures to now disobey God, as born that way!

But Adam DID sin just as we do (if you believe Paul, that is).

 

[JonC]

Martin is agreeing with the scriptures, as am I, as both of us would affirm that when was first created, was in a slnless natures state, after the fall, Adam had his nature changed to being a sinner now, and that is same nature all of us are born with also!

Look, if you and @Martin Marprelate can only understand sin in terms of some "fallen nature" then so be it. But you have absolutely no room to criticize others who may only understand inspiration within the context of KJOism, baptism in terms of washing away that original sin, or intercession through a church priest. Your tradition is no less and no more than theirs.

That's the problem when you reject Scripture in favor of tradition or philosophy. You have lost that objective standard. So keep your tradition but know that you have no right to judge others until you remove that log from your own eye.

 

[Yeshua1]

But Adam DID sin just as we do (if you believe Paul, that is).

he sinned by a free will choice to disbelieve/disobey God, while all of us here are born to freely sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

What happened to make Cain murder because until he murdered he wasn't a murderer. What happened to make you commit your first sinful act?

Your post is both silly and unbiblical.

I am born a sinner, before I even chose to sin, as all have been credited by God to be found in Adam, and this born as sinners by birth!
We are not born as blank slates, not reckoned by God to be sinners until we make the first choice to actual sin!