How Did the Fall of Adam Affect the Lord Jesus?

[Yeshua1]

But Adam DID sin just as we do (if you believe Paul, that is).

Adam had a real free choice to sin though, as His nature before the fall was not corrupted, not sinful...

 

[JonC]

he sinned by a free will choice to disbelieve/disobey God, while all of us here are born to freely sin!

We all sin by free choice. Like I said, you are caught up in tradition and arguing a point not actually present in Scripture (like when you argued the sin nature was passed down through sexual relations). You are far from Scripture, brother.

 

[JonC]

I am born a sinner, before I even chose to sin, as all have been credited by God to be found in Adam, and this born as sinners by birth!
We are not born as blank slates, not reckoned by God to be sinners until we make the first choice to actual sin!

No, actually you were not. Being a "sinner" implies that you have sinned. You mean that you were born with a human nature like Adam's (what Scripture refers to as "the flesh").

 

[Yeshua1]

Look, if you and @Martin Marprelate can only understand sin in terms of some "fallen nature" then so be it. But you have absolutely no room to criticize others who may only understand inspiration within the context of KJOism, baptism in terms of washing away that original sin, or intercession through a church priest. Your tradition is no less and no more than theirs.

That's the problem when you reject Scripture in favor of tradition or philosophy. You have lost that objective standard. So keep your tradition but know that you have no right to judge others until you remove that log from your own eye.

The amusing thing here is that its you and those others who misunderstand what happened in the fall, and thus misunderstand the Virgin birth and the sinless humanity of Christ are the ones who tend to call and label us as being into traditions and denying the scriptures themselves!
It is interesting that so many such as a Hodge, Calvin, Berkhoff, Grudem, et all also agreed with us in this area, were all of great reformed theologians, and the Calvinistic Baptists all misunderstanding this?

 

[JonC]

Adam had a real free choice to sin though, as His nature before the fall was not corrupted, not sinful...

Ah....I forgot all about Yeshua1 3:16. I can't keep up with all these new fangled "bibles".

 

[Yeshua1]

We all sin by free choice. Like I said, you are caught up in tradition and arguing a point not actually present in Scripture (like when you argued the sin nature was passed down through sexual relations). You are far from Scripture, brother.

We have no real freewill choice though as adam once had and jesus had, as we are enslaved to the base sin natures, unlike them!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, actually you were not. Being a "sinner" implies that you have sinned. You mean that you were born with a human nature like Adam's (what Scripture refers to as "the flesh").

We are sinners by both birth and choice!

 

[JonC]

The amusing thing here is that its you and those others who misunderstand what happened in the fall, and thus misunderstand the Virgin birth and the sinless humanity of Christ are the ones who tend to call and label us as being into traditions and denying the scriptures themselves!
It is interesting that so many such as a Hodge, Calvin, Berkhoff, Grudem, et all also agreed with us in this area, were all of great reformed theologians, and the Calvinistic Baptists all misunderstanding this?

Anyone who believes sin a biological problem misunderstands the issue. Whether or not all you listed hold that error, I can't say (from past experience I won't take your word for it).

 

[Yeshua1]

Ah....I forgot all about Yeshua1 3:16. I can't keep up with all these new fangled "bibles".

I just wonder why you deny that we are born as sinners....

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You create an unrealistic scenario, Martin. Even men "in the flesh" can please God in a temporal context.

Consider:

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' There are no exceptions to this rule. If Zechariah, Elizabeth and Noah found grace in God's eyes (as they did), it is because they were not in the flesh but in the Spirit. They were justified by grace through faith.

Once again, I'm sorry not to be able to respond to your other posts. I am going to make one post to @JonC and then I'm finished here until I get my sermons done. I'm aware that I didn't respond to you as I promised on another topic, and I apologize for that also.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Let me get this right....you are saying that before Adam sinned Adam had an sinless nature and after Adam sinned he had a sinful nature.

Yes. The Biblical evidence for this is overwhelming and I haven't even got to Genesis 3 yet. That he fell into sin is self-evident, but the temptation did not arise within him or Eve, but came from without, but once he succumbed to it his whole nature changed..

That's like saying before Cain killed Abel he was not a murder [sic] but after Cain killed Abel he was.

That would be true, but both Cain and Abel were fallen creatures, hence the need for sacrifice.

I'm not interested in philosophical games - the fact is that Adam never lost his original nature. Sin is, per Scripture, a matter of the will.

Sin is indeed a matter of the will, but the will of man is fallen and in bondage to the flesh (e.g. Jeremiah 13:23).
All the questions I have asked you have been Bible-based. Let me reprise some of them for you:

God pronounced creation 'good' before the creation of Adam. After the creation of Adam, He pronounced it 'very good.' So the arrival of Adam actually improved creation. Now if Adam was created as just a regular guy and if 'those who are in the flesh [i.e sinful nature] cannot please God,' then how could creation with him in it be 'very good' and since Adam came straight from the hands of God, how is God not the author of evil?

'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.' Men sin of their own volition, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Now: did Adam have such a heart when he was first created? 'The carnal mind is enmity against God.' Did Adam have such a mind when he was first created?

I also wrote:

But we have inherited Adam's fallen nature and in our natural state are 'non posse non peccare'-- not able not to sin. That is why we are 'by nature, children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Adam was not a child of wrath by nature, nor could he have been in a 'very good' creation.

There is nothing 'philosophical' about these; they are all based upon the Bible. But you are unwilling or unable to answer them, so it appears that my work here is done.

 

[Aaron]

Exactly. Part of the issue is that you translate Scripture as "blah blah blah"...until you find something interesting that may fit your ideas. The only two natures mentioned in Scripture are the "flesh" and the "spirit". Good to see you finally abandoning this "superman" philosophy and returning to the Word.

The fact is that your theory is foreign to Scripture (I was expecting you to mention the Yggdrasil at any time). But trying to prove your mythology through Scripture you have disproved it. That's the beauty of Sola Scriptura. It removes "you" from the equation.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you return to the Bible. Hopefully you'll decide it is enough and stay away from "old wives tales", "vain philosophies", and superstition. Good luck.

One more time. Adam was good.
Adam became corrupted.
Adam was no longer good. His nature changed.

That is the carnal nature.

 

[JonC]

Yes. The Biblical evidence for this is overwhelming and I haven't even got to Genesis 3 yet. That he fell into sin is self-evident, but the temptation did not arise within him or Eve, but came from without, but once he succumbed to it his whole nature changed..

That would be true, but both Cain and Abel were fallen creatures, hence the need for sacrifice.

Sin is indeed a matter of the will, but the will of man is fallen and in bondage to the flesh (e.g. Jeremiah 13:23).
All the questions I have asked you have been Bible-based. Let me reprise some of them for you:

God pronounced creation 'good' before the creation of Adam. After the creation of Adam, He pronounced it 'very good.' So the arrival of Adam actually improved creation. Now if Adam was created as just a regular guy and if 'those who are in the flesh [i.e sinful nature] cannot please God,' then how could creation with him in it be 'very good' and since Adam came straight from the hands of God, how is God not the author of evil?

'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.' Men sin of their own volition, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Now: did Adam have such a heart when he was first created? 'The carnal mind is enmity against God.' Did Adam have such a mind when he was first created?

I also wrote:

But we have inherited Adam's fallen nature and in our natural state are 'non posse non peccare'-- not able not to sin. That is why we are 'by nature, children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Adam was not a child of wrath by nature, nor could he have been in a 'very good' creation.

There is nothing 'philosophical' about these; they are all based upon the Bible. But you are unwilling or unable to answer them, so it appears that my work here is done.

The problem is that you seem to think nature itself is sinful. This is not biblical. Sin is in relation to God. Either Adam was created "of the Spirit" or "of the flesh". You can't have it both ways and pretend to hold a biblical definition of "nature". Adam was created "flesh" and we are born of "flesh". Did Adam sin before he sinned? No, that's absurd. Do we? No, that's absurd. James 1 tells us how we sin (hint - it's not because we were "born that way").

When we are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (our desires - and this does refer to our nature - the "flesh"). When we are carried away and enticed by the "flesh" (our own lusts), lust conceives and gives birth to sin.

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to Adam. And Jesus had the exact same nature - the Word was made flesh. But Jesus didn't sin (he wasn't carried away by his lusts).

 

[Aaron]

This is the very problem , as we must define what the sinnature really is, for if Jesus was born exactly same humanity as we now have, he was also a sinner!

Let's be perfectly clear. Flesh and bone is not evil. That which animates flesh and bone is. The breath of life that was breathed into Adam became corrupted. His mind. His heart.

Not his flesh and bone, though it has a death sentence upon it.

When we say that which is born of flesh is flesh, it isn't flesh and bone that is in mind, but the soul.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The problem is that you seem to think nature itself is sinful. This is not biblical. Sin is in relation to God. Either Adam was created "of the Spirit" or "of the flesh". You can't have it both ways and pretend to hold a biblical definition of "nature". Adam was created "flesh" and we are born of "flesh". Did Adam sin before he sinned? No, that's absurd. Do we? No, that's absurd. James 1 tells us how we sin (hint - it's not because we were "born that way").

When we are tempted when we are carried away and enticed by our own lusts (our desires - and this does refer to our nature - the "flesh"). When we are carried away and enticed by the "flesh" (our own lusts), lust conceives and gives birth to sin.

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to Adam. And Jesus had the exact same nature - the Word was made flesh. But Jesus didn't sin (he wasn't carried away by his lusts).

Come, come, JonC, you know perfectly well how sarx is used in the NT. Don't be so silly.

 

[JonC]

One more time. Adam was good.
Adam became corrupted.
Adam was no longer good. His nature changed.

That is the carnal nature.

Adam had not sinned. Adam sinned. His nature did not change (at least we are not told in Scripture his nature changed). You are stuck in your traditions, caught between Rome and Scriprure.

 

[percho]

I take the view that Satan fell prior to the Creation of the physical universe.

But what is in view in Romans 5...


Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


...is a specificity of Adam's sin, and sin entering the world as a result of Adam's actions, hence the entrance of death for man because of that sin.

So we cannot attribute sin and death to Satan, but to Adam, as Paul does.

"The devil made me do it" won't stand up in God's Court, lol.


God bless.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is that, the death, that the sin of Adam brought to all men? Why did God put the man in the garden he had planted where the devil happened to be.

Was the purpose of putting him there to test the man or for some purpose relative to the mission of the Son of God to be manifested as a man, flesh and blood?

You said the sinful devil already existed before the man was created in the image of God, therefore, did sin have to take place in order that; through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, to take place?

 

[percho]

Yes. The Biblical evidence for this is overwhelming and I haven't even got to Genesis 3 yet. That he fell into sin is self-evident, but the temptation did not arise within him or Eve, but came from without, but once he succumbed to it his whole nature changed..

That would be true, but both Cain and Abel were fallen creatures, hence the need for sacrifice.

Sin is indeed a matter of the will, but the will of man is fallen and in bondage to the flesh (e.g. Jeremiah 13:23).
All the questions I have asked you have been Bible-based. Let me reprise some of them for you:

God pronounced creation 'good' before the creation of Adam. After the creation of Adam, He pronounced it 'very good.' So the arrival of Adam actually improved creation. Now if Adam was created as just a regular guy and if 'those who are in the flesh [i.e sinful nature] cannot please God,' then how could creation with him in it be 'very good' and since Adam came straight from the hands of God, how is God not the author of evil?

'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.' Men sin of their own volition, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Now: did Adam have such a heart when he was first created? 'The carnal mind is enmity against God.' Did Adam have such a mind when he was first created?

I also wrote:

But we have inherited Adam's fallen nature and in our natural state are 'non posse non peccare'-- not able not to sin. That is why we are 'by nature, children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Adam was not a child of wrath by nature, nor could he have been in a 'very good' creation.

There is nothing 'philosophical' about these; they are all based upon the Bible. But you are unwilling or unable to answer them, so it appears that my work here is done.

And we have known that to those loving God all things ( And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.)do work together for good, to those who are called (Adam and Eve) according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; (Inclusive of Adam and Eve?) Rom 8:28,29 with Gen 3:6 inserted

What think ye of this thought?

Please do your sermons first.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Regarding us being born “in original righteousness as Adam was”, the most that we can say in terms of Scripture is that Adam sinned after he was created.

we can say much more than that....

The idea that Adam had two natures ("pre-Fall" and "post-Fall) is completely absent from the Bible.

You say this several times....yet it is a foolish statement and not looking for an answer,,,,Adam existed before the fall...He was not created as fallen.
He continued to exist after the fall...but had failed the test.

He was in original righteousness...yet untested. The test came he failed and sin and death entered...and us in him.

Another interesting note is that we can't imagine the Doctrine of Original Sin (as inherited sin) as being implied in Scripture because it is foreign to Judaism (the Jews saw Adam's sin as affecting mankind, but not in terms of an inherited sin).

The misunderstanding, or lack of understanding of judaism has nothing to do with the scriptural teaching.

 

[Iconoclast]

No indeed. Yet we are still sinners from our mothers' wombs. Since God is not the Author of evil, we must have inherited in some way the fallen nature of Adam. Thank you for proving my point.

Indeed, but there is a difference. Adam came straight from the hands of God, who pronounced His creation very good, and you will note that it was better after the creation of Adam than before (Genesis 1:25, 31). Yet God did not pronounce it perfect. Adam was sinless yet 'peccable'-- 'Posse peccare'- capable of sin. But we have inherited Adam's fallen nature and in our natural state are 'non posse non peccare'-- not able not to sin. That is why we are 'by nature, children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Adam was not a child of wrath by nature, nor could he have been in a 'very good' creation.

Yes...by using the scriptural teaching and language ...the truth is obvious.